Started editing in FCP *need help*

[GmElliott]

Edited my first piece on FCP last night. It was a very small straight forward project, mostly talking heads at a podium with only light clean up editing required with some audio sweetening.

I don't know if I did it the most efficient way but I dropped the entire 40 minute clip in it's entirety into the timeline. I used a combination of the razor tool and the ripple tool to cut out the long pauses between speakers, etc. The blade tool works well but isn't quite as dynamic as simply hitting "S" and splitting whereever the timeline playhead is (al'a Vegas) though I think there is an option to (cmd-V or ctrl-V) to work the same way but am not sure. Anyway the ripple tool was fantastic- I love it.

The audio is where I had my biggest problem. It some of the speakers were a little low and needed a boost. Overall the audio needed normalizing which I've come to find out FCP lacks. Thumbs down on that one FCP. :???: Anyway I go and right-click on my audio and choose "Open in Editor" ...soon after I'm greeted with the Motion banner as it loads. Motion?! I wanted Soundtrack! Apparently I have to undo linking and select ONLY the audio to get it to load into Soundtrack. Fair enough, backe dout and was able to load the audio into Soundtrack for normalizing (at least that is what I hoped to do).

When I got into Soundtrack I noticed it didn't take just the clip of audio (from cut to cut) but the ENTIRE audio track on my 40 minute DV clip.
* Is there a way to import just a section of audio (from cut to cut) into Soundtrack?

When soundtrack loaded I noticed a bar that was "analyzing" my audio which took quite a while to finish. I tried to access some options during this time but they were greyed out (including the "normalize" option). I waited till it finished and normalized my audio. However then there was ANOTHER bar to the right of the audio timeline that was slowly growing as the Normalize command analyzed the audio for normalization. WTF?!

After the normalization was complete it didn't seem to change the audio any. I think that's because the audio already PEAKS during the times the crowd appluaded. I had these peaks in there because Soundtrack took the ENTIRE clip rather than just a section of it.
*Is there a way to selectively apply normalization to a clip?
*Was there a better tool to use to sweeten the audio (compression perhaps)

I tried experiementing with the compressor/limitor but the dialog was very cryptic and I didn't understand what changes I was making. How do I learn how to use these tools? I think the instruction guide and my Diana Weynard Apple Pro Training series book only glosses over it.

Overall I like the organization and speed of cutting up the timeline with the razor and ripple tools but have been less than impressed with FCP's ability to process audio. :???:

Lastly a few "qirks" I noticed that I'm not sure are normal or not:
* Sometiems during playback (with show audio waveforms on) I get blank areas in the audio track with little x's like it isn't drawing the waveforms correctly. They usually pop back up after I stop the playhead. Is this normal?

* At some zom levels I can't "see" my edit selection. For example when I use the normal selection tool (A) and highlight an edit point to add a transition sometimes I dont' get the visual feedback that I'm selecting the edit point depending on my zoom level. It's doesn't have to do with beeing zoomed too far out because I'd not see it, then zoom out another notch and it would re-appear. Is this a known issue?

[MediaConcepts]

I don't know if I did it the most efficient way but I dropped the entire 40 minute clip in it's entirety into the timeline. I used a combination of the razor tool and the ripple tool to cut out the long pauses between speakers, etc. The blade tool works well but isn't quite as dynamic as simply hitting "S" and splitting whereever the timeline playhead is (al'a Vegas) though I think there is an option to (cmd-V or ctrl-V) to work the same way but am not sure. Anyway the ripple tool was fantastic- I love it.

Control v will cut your video at the desired point. If you highlight the clip you want to delete and hit shift/delete the the timeline will ripple to close the gap.

The audio is where I had my biggest problem. It some of the speakers were a little low and needed a boost. Overall the audio needed normalizing which I've come to find out FCP lacks. Thumbs down on that one FCP. :???: Anyway I go and right-click on my audio and choose "Open in Editor" ...soon after I'm greeted with the Motion banner as it loads. Motion?! I wanted Soundtrack! Apparently I have to undo linking and select ONLY the audio to get it to load into Soundtrack. Fair enough, backe dout and was able to load the audio into Soundtrack for normalizing (at least that is what I hoped to do).

Go to preferences and change the external editor preferences.

Hit p (for pen tool ) and click on the red line in the audio track to change the level. Or open the audio mixer under tools to raise the level of the whole track.

When I got into Soundtrack I noticed it didn't take just the clip of audio (from cut to cut) but the ENTIRE audio track on my 40 minute DV clip.
* Is there a way to import just a section of audio (from cut to cut) into Soundtrack?

Don't bother with Soundtrack at this point. Either manually adjust your audio or use the compression filter in the audio filters folder. Set it to 1.5 - 2.0 compression.


Lastly a few "qirks" I noticed that I'm not sure are normal or not:
* Sometiems during playback (with show audio waveforms on) I get blank areas in the audio track with little x's like it isn't drawing the waveforms correctly. They usually pop back up after I stop the playhead. Is this normal?



Yes, this is normal. I think the audio waveforms slow things down so I don't use them.


* At some zom levels I can't "see" my edit selection. For example when I use the normal selection tool (A) and highlight an edit point to add a transition sometimes I dont' get the visual feedback that I'm selecting the edit point depending on my zoom level. It's doesn't have to do with beeing zoomed too far out because I'd not see it, then zoom out another notch and it would re-appear. Is this a known issue?

You don't have to select your edit point to add a transition, just drag the transition to the edit point.

Also, about the compressor/limiter filter, the only adjustment you need to make it the ratio, 1.5 - 2.0. Also be sure to check the preserve volume box.

Joe

[RatVega]

Edited my first piece on FCP last night. It was a very small straight forward project, mostly talking heads at a podium with only light clean up editing required with some audio sweetening.

I don't know if I did it the most efficient way but I dropped the entire 40 minute clip in it's entirety into the timeline.
This is the norm unless your clip has a lot of start/stops. In that case, you can mark it automatically based on the camera's metadata by double-clicking it into the Viewer and using Mark>DV Start/Stop Detect from the main menu. From there, you can use individual marks to limit the selection or even make subclips.

I used a combination of the razor tool and the ripple tool to cut out the long pauses between speakers, etc. The blade tool works well but isn't quite as dynamic as simply hitting "S" and splitting whereever the timeline playhead is (al'a Vegas) though I think there is an option to (cmd-V or ctrl-V) to work the same way but am not sure. Anyway the ripple tool was fantastic- I love it.
If I understand what you're wishing for, you'd like to simply scrub the timeline (watching both the start and end points) then delete the area scrubbed. Right? OK, you can do that... In the timeline, use the Range Select tool (G G G is the shortcut) to get a little + cursor. When you "mouse down" on a clip it will open the trim window and show the beginning and end of your scrub as you drag down the timeline. When you have highlighted what you want to delete, release the mouse and hit the Delete Key. This will work across multiple clips on the same track as well, so it can be a quicky trim tool.

The audio is where I had my biggest problem. It some of the speakers were a little low and needed a boost. Overall the audio needed normalizing which I've come to find out FCP lacks. Thumbs down on that one FCP. :???: Anyway I go and right-click on my audio and choose "Open in Editor" ...soon after I'm greeted with the Motion banner as it loads. Motion?! I wanted Soundtrack! Apparently I have to undo linking and select ONLY the audio to get it to load into Soundtrack. Fair enough, backed out and was able to load the audio into Soundtrack for normalizing (at least that is what I hoped to do).
Thing one: You need to designate your External Editors in the System Preferences. You'll probably also want to designate Photoshop there for your Stills editor.
Thing two: I'm sure you understand what Normalization is, but it's a term that many use to mean level adjustment (this isn't a private post so bear with me...) I tend to do all my "serious" audio work either before or after the fact depending on how bad the audio problems are. Whether I'm using Soundtrack Pro or Peak 5, I try to work with the sequence audio as a whole to get the context right. Both programs have the ability to select only a portion of the timeline for normalization. BUT if all I want is just a little level adjustment as I cut, that is easily done in FCP using clip-level adjustment in the audio tab of viewer or using the Mixer available in Tools.

When I got into Soundtrack I noticed it didn't take just the clip of audio (from cut to cut) but the ENTIRE audio track on my 40 minute DV clip.
* Is there a way to import just a section of audio (from cut to cut) into Soundtrack?
Yes, but the section has to exist in Capture Scratch (or somewhere) as a separate clip. For your purposes, this is about the same thing as a "no"... The "global" attitude of Soundtrack makes it want to work with the clip as a whole (as it exists in source.) This is part of the reason for the workflow I mentioned above. The good news is that timeline adjustments aren't applied to the source, so if you make a few adjustments for convenience while editing you don't need to undo anything before going after the clip audio as a whole.

When soundtrack loaded I noticed a bar that was "analyzing" my audio which took quite a while to finish. I tried to access some options during this time but they were greyed out (including the "normalize" option). I waited till it finished and normalized my audio. However then there was ANOTHER bar to the right of the audio timeline that was slowly growing as the Normalize command analyzed the audio for normalization. WTF?!
I believe the "analyzing" at load-up is more about deriving the waveforms, etc. A 40-minute clip (probably 8GB with the video attached) can take a bit to load. Not amazingly, Soundtrack Pro starts to look a lot more like a soundtrack editor than a quickie audio fixer...

After the normalization was complete it didn't seem to change the audio any. I think that's because the audio already PEAKS during the times the crowd appluaded. I had these peaks in there because Soundtrack took the ENTIRE clip rather than just a section of it.
If you'd only applied normalization to the low portions of the Soundtrack Pro timeline it would have done what you were looking for, BUT you'd still need to remember to "bounce" the effects before saving for them to be permanently applied. This is a standard step in many audio programs but one that evades many new users.

*Is there a way to selectively apply normalization to a clip?
I hope this was answered above... :-?

*Was there a better tool to use to sweeten the audio (compression perhaps)

I tried experiementing with the compressor/limitor but the dialog was very cryptic and I didn't understand what changes I was making. How do I learn how to use these tools? I think the instruction guide and my Diana Weynard Apple Pro Training series book only glosses over it.
Larry Jordan has just released a new training DVD for Soundtrack. He claims it covers everything, and he's not big on overstatement.
http://www.larryjordan.biz/store/index.html There's a TOC pdf to look over before parting with your bux. He's well respected.

Overall I like the organization and speed of cutting up the timeline with the razor and ripple tools but have been less than impressed with FCP's ability to process audio. :???:
In the context you've put it, I see your point. I shared some of these frustrations until I saw how "the big kids" built their movies. The audio frequently goes out-of-house for work as do some of the advanced video sequences. FCP is designed to support that kind of workflow, so as I adapted it started to make sense. There's a reason it's a suite and not an "all-in-one' application like the low-end apps.

Lastly a few "qirks" I noticed that I'm not sure are normal or not:
* Sometiems during playback (with show audio waveforms on) I get blank areas in the audio track with little x's like it isn't drawing the waveforms correctly. They usually pop back up after I stop the playhead. Is this normal?
Yes. Waveform generation is processor-intensive, so it's given a lower priority than accurate playback. The "x's" indicate "more to come."

* At some zom levels I can't "see" my edit selection. For example when I use the normal selection tool (A) and highlight an edit point to add a transition sometimes I dont' get the visual feedback that I'm selecting the edit point depending on my zoom level. It's doesn't have to do with beeing zoomed too far out because I'd not see it, then zoom out another notch and it would re-appear. Is this a known issue? This too is normal. It has to do with pixel accuracy of the mouse when you're zoomed way out. I find Option + and Option - are my friends when working in the timeline, at least until I get a massive hi-rez monitor... Use Option instead of Command because it only works on the timeline (making mistakes like scaling the canvas less frequent.)

I want to say that for a "first project" you're asking pretty advanced questions, an indication that you've trained yourself very well. I think we all learn with every session but you're well on your way! Keep it up!

[gl]

Just another hit on the whole audio thing...

Just remember that FCP is designed to let the "real" audio tools do their work. It supports OMF and XML for that reason. Most of the time, the roundtrip concept encourages you to simply 'link' the audio files/tracks and tweak them in the other app so that they are updated in FCP. Protools works well for this of course but, STP can do a reasonable job (Havn't spent much time with it honestly). I just wish good ol' Soundedit 16 made the cut at Macromedia so many years ago.

-gl

[RatVega]

gl!! errr... Motox!!

I'm glad you made it over here... :-)

[gl]

Yes, had to keep my eye on you rebels ;)

-gl

[GmElliott]

Control v will cut your video at the desired point. If you highlight the clip you want to delete and hit shift/delete the the timeline will ripple to close the gap.
I knew there was a modifier+V key to do that. Thanks. Regarding the shift+delete, can't you get the same results from hitting a single button- the delete key adjacent to the numpad? Hitting that should delete the clip and close the gap in one action as well.



Go to preferences and change the external editor preferences.
Yeah I set the external preferences correct but I assume you have to make sure you have ONLY the audio selected for it to choose Soundtrack rather than Motion.

Hit p (for pen tool ) and click on the red line in the audio track to change the level. Or open the audio mixer under tools to raise the level of the whole track.
Awesome- I just learned about the audio mixer yesterday via a late chapter in Total Training: FCP. Very cool.



Don't bother with Soundtrack at this point. Either manually adjust your audio or use the compression filter in the audio filters folder. Set it to 1.5 - 2.0 compression.
I have to learn more about how to use the various audio filters- they aren't always as evident as the video filters.



Yes, this is normal. I think the audio waveforms slow things down so I don't use them.
I'll try using them ONLY when I'm mixing audio or audio sweetening. The on thing I wish FCP did was make the wave forms grow and shrink with volume changes dynamically. In Vegas when you raise the level of a track you'll see the waveform grow allowing you to eye up any clipping.



You don't have to select your edit point to add a transition, just drag the transition to the edit point.
I know you can do that but the right-click add transition seems more direct.

Also, about the compressor/limiter filter, the only adjustment you need to make it the ratio, 1.5 - 2.0. Also be sure to check the preserve volume box.


Joe

Thanks for the settings I'll give them a shot!

[GmElliott]

I used a combination of the razor tool and the ripple tool to cut out the long pauses between speakers, etc. The blade tool works well but isn't quite as dynamic as simply hitting "S" and splitting whereever the timeline playhead is (al'a Vegas) though I think there is an option to (cmd-V or ctrl-V) to work the same way but am not sure. Anyway the ripple tool was fantastic- I love it.
If I understand what you're wishing for, you'd like to simply scrub the timeline (watching both the start and end points) then delete the area scrubbed. Right? OK, you can do that... In the timeline, use the Range Select tool (G G G is the shortcut) to get a little + cursor. When you "mouse down" on a clip it will open the trim window and show the beginning and end of your scrub as you drag down the timeline. When you have highlighted what you want to delete, release the mouse and hit the Delete Key. This will work across multiple clips on the same track as well, so it can be a quicky trim tool.
Not exactly- I was looking for something similar to the SPLIT command that Vegas has. I presume the CTRL+V is the closest thing to that (in fact probably the SAME thing)..which is a good thing.

The audio is where I had my biggest problem. It some of the speakers were a little low and needed a boost. Overall the audio needed normalizing which I've come to find out FCP lacks. Thumbs down on that one FCP. :???: Anyway I go and right-click on my audio and choose "Open in Editor" ...soon after I'm greeted with the Motion banner as it loads. Motion?! I wanted Soundtrack! Apparently I have to undo linking and select ONLY the audio to get it to load into Soundtrack. Fair enough, backed out and was able to load the audio into Soundtrack for normalizing (at least that is what I hoped to do).
Thing one: You need to designate your External Editors in the System Preferences. You'll probably also want to designate Photoshop there for your Stills editor.
Thing two: I'm sure you understand what Normalization is, but it's a term that many use to mean level adjustment (this isn't a private post so bear with me...) I tend to do all my "serious" audio work either before or after the fact depending on how bad the audio problems are. Whether I'm using Soundtrack Pro or Peak 5, I try to work with the sequence audio as a whole to get the context right. Both programs have the ability to select only a portion of the timeline for normalization. BUT if all I want is just a little level adjustment as I cut, that is easily done in FCP using clip-level adjustment in the audio tab of viewer or using the Mixer available in Tools.
Often times my audio is clean but just a little lower than optimal. I set my levels during recording a little conservative on purpose to have a little more ceiling for when an applause or similar loud noise happens. The problem is when you go to normalize a clip that is quiet 99% of the track but only a few loud applauses it won't normalize because the audio is already peaked close to 0db. To get around this I'll usually create cuts in the track to isolate the areas where they are quieter than the applause. I'll go ahead and normalize those sections and the normalize feature does a great job of boosting the audio to the optimum sound level. It's a lot more effective than the guess-work involved with using the volume/level bands. Using them wouldn't be so bad but FCP doesn't give you any visual feedback as you raise or lower the bars (ie you don't see the audio waveform raise or lower as you raise or lover the volume/level envelope).


When I got into Soundtrack I noticed it didn't take just the clip of audio (from cut to cut) but the ENTIRE audio track on my 40 minute DV clip.
* Is there a way to import just a section of audio (from cut to cut) into Soundtrack?
Yes, but the section has to exist in Capture Scratch (or somewhere) as a separate clip. For your purposes, this is about the same thing as a "no"... The "global" attitude of Soundtrack makes it want to work with the clip as a whole (as it exists in source.) This is part of the reason for the workflow I mentioned above. The good news is that timeline adjustments aren't applied to the source, so if you make a few adjustments for convenience while editing you don't need to undo anything before going after the clip audio as a whole.
Interesting, I'll definitly have to learn Soundtrack very soon!


After the normalization was complete it didn't seem to change the audio any. I think that's because the audio already PEAKS during the times the crowd appluaded. I had these peaks in there because Soundtrack took the ENTIRE clip rather than just a section of it.
If you'd only applied normalization to the low portions of the Soundtrack Pro timeline it would have done what you were looking for, BUT you'd still need to remember to "bounce" the effects before saving for them to be permanently applied. This is a standard step in many audio programs but one that evades many new users.
I'm not sure I'm quite following you. ??

*Is there a way to selectively apply normalization to a clip?
I hope this was answered above... :???:
I'm sorry I'm so dense. No. :redface:

*Was there a better tool to use to sweeten the audio (compression perhaps)

I tried experiementing with the compressor/limitor but the dialog was very cryptic and I didn't understand what changes I was making. How do I learn how to use these tools? I think the instruction guide and my Diana Weynard Apple Pro Training series book only glosses over it.
Larry Jordan has just released a new training DVD for Soundtrack. He claims it covers everything, and he's not big on overstatement.
http://www.larryjordan.biz/store/index.html There's a TOC pdf to look over before parting with your bux. He's well respected.
Awesome I was planning on ordering his whole FCP set along with the Soundtrack disks from Lynda.com about a month ago. Maybe I'll order directly from him to give him a little extra profit. I wonder if he offers a bundle discount on the FCP stuff.




I want to say that for a "first project" you're asking pretty advanced questions, an indication that you've trained yourself very well. I think we all learn with every session but you're well on your way! Keep it up!
Thanks a lot for all your continued help. You've always given me such comprehensive feedback. I greatly appreciate it.

__________________

[RatVega]

Not exactly- I was looking for something similar to the SPLIT command that Vegas has. I presume the CTRL+V is the closest thing to that (in fact probably the SAME thing)..which is a good thing.
It should be glaringly obvious that I don't know Jack about Vegas' Split function... :redface:
Control+V is an Add Edit. It's like a Razor but can be used during playback to add edit points (sort of like the real-time cutting in Multiclip.) It will cut everything on the tracks that have Auto Select enabled.
Is that what Split does?

Often times my audio is clean but just a little lower than optimal. I set my levels during recording a little conservative on purpose to have a little more ceiling for when an applause or similar loud noise happens. The problem is when you go to normalize a clip that is quiet 99% of the track but only a few loud applauses it won't normalize because the audio is already peaked close to 0db. To get around this I'll usually create cuts in the track to isolate the areas where they are quieter than the applause. I'll go ahead and normalize those sections and the normalize feature does a great job of boosting the audio to the optimum sound level. It's a lot more effective than the guess-work involved with using the volume/level bands. Using them wouldn't be so bad but FCP doesn't give you any visual feedback as you raise or lower the bars (ie you don't see the audio waveform raise or lower as you raise or lover the volume/level envelope).
Au contraire! The Clip Overlays control (lower left corner of the timeline or Option+W to toggle) will give you a little red Levels line on the audio clips complete with all keyframes. The Pen tool that MediaConcepts mentioned is an easy way to set an audio keyframe in the timeline. Note that the Level line will change height according to its setting but the waveforms don't change since they've not been modified.


After the normalization was complete it didn't seem to change the audio any. I think that's because the audio already PEAKS during the times the crowd appluaded. I had these peaks in there because Soundtrack took the ENTIRE clip rather than just a section of it.
If you'd only applied normalization to the low portions of the Soundtrack Pro timeline it would have done what you were looking for, BUT you'd still need to remember to "bounce" the effects before saving for them to be permanently applied. This is a standard step in many audio programs but one that evades many new users.
I'm not sure I'm quite following you. ??
Soundtrack has two things that may be different from what you're used to:
One is that you can highlight a portion of the timeline by dragging the mouse across it and then apply an action (such as Normalize) only to that selected portion of the timeline. This is an easy way to bring up your dialog when you have applause within the clip.
The second is that since a real-time system assumes that you'll be adjusting on-the-fly before you "finalize" your work, you need a "finalize" (or "flatten") step to lock the timeline as it is at the moment you decide it's right. This step is called "bouncing." To set the timeline in stone (don't worry, there are ways out...) choose Process > Bounce Realtime to Action and everything goes to an item on the Actions list.

*Is there a way to selectively apply normalization to a clip?
I hope this was answered above... :???:
I'm sorry I'm so dense. No. :redface:
No you're not - I know this as fact. Well, if you feel that way after reading the paragraph immediately above this... maybe :lol:Awesome I was planning on ordering his whole FCP set along with the Soundtrack disks from Lynda.com about a month ago. Maybe I'll order directly from him to give him a little extra profit. I wonder if he offers a bundle discount on the FCP stuff.
I would also recommend Ripple Training for good materials. (We both have a prejudice here, you know that I post for Steve and I know that you had an "experience", but his stuff is really quite good IMHO) Check out his latest stuff at http://www.rippletraining.com (http://www.rippletraining.com/)

I hope this brings you closer...

[GmElliott]

A little experiement I conducted had unsettling results. :(

http://www.videouniversity.com/forums/gforum.cgi?post=298025;#298025

[rmckoen]

A little experiement I conducted had unsettling results. :(

http://www.videouniversity.com/forums/gforum.cgi?post=298025;#298025


I saw that....Ouch.....its too bad nobody chimed in over there......hmmmm....interesting....

rob

[GmElliott]

Well the Mac forum was always kind of slow but it's in stark contrast to the active support I've recieved here. Kudos to you guys. Many thanks.

[Brian]

Well the Mac forum was always kind of slow but it's in stark contrast to the active support I've recieved here. Kudos to you guys. Many thanks.

Hey Glen,

I'm finding myself gravitating to this forum more often than others.

BTW, my workflow on editing clips into the timelime goes something like this.

1. Video is in Viewer
2. I scrub with the "J", "K", and "L" keys.
3. Use the "I" and "O" keys for my in & out edit point.
4. Use the "Y" key to drop the clip into the timeline (I customized that key in the tools).
5. Press the "Q" key to select the Viewer again (if you don't, then you'll scrub in the timeline).
6. Repeat until I've got the clips in the sequence I want to work on.

Kind of a quick rough edit. Drop what I want in and then fine tune them.

I was doing it your way (blade, roll, slide, etc.) but found this to be faster.

:)

[rmckoen]

Hey Glen,

I'm finding myself gravitating to this forum more often than others.

BTW, my workflow on editing clips into the timelime goes something like this.

1. Video is in Viewer
2. I scrub with the "J", "K", and "L" keys.
3. Use the "I" and "O" keys for my in & out edit point.
4. Use the "Y" key to drop the clip into the timeline (I customized that key in the tools).
5. Press the "Q" key to select the Viewer again (if you don't, then you'll scrub in the timeline).
6. Repeat until I've got the clips in the sequence I want to work on.

Kind of a quick rough edit. Drop what I want in and then fine tune them.

I was doing it your way (blade, roll, slide, etc.) but found this to be faster.

:)


I use the shuttlepro 2 and a 8 button logitech mouse and I hardly use the keyboard at all, with all the buttons dedicated to exact functions i never touch the keyboard......I really love the shuttlepro and all it can do with FCP.



rob

[RatVega]

A little experiement I conducted had unsettling results. :(

http://www.videouniversity.com/forums/gforum.cgi?post=298025;#298025
I kind of feel like I need to apologize to someone, but I'm not positive to whom...

Ben is a real decent guy and a certified trainer. He's also an ex-IT/unix type so he knows his beans. While he isn't as "antique" as I am, he's one of the few I know who is absolutely passionate about his Macs and FCP. Like me, he's been shot at a lot over the years for his NLE preference. Add to that his efforts to fully understand all things Mac and the fact that he's been dealing with the Katrina aftermath (he's from Louisiana) which has to be a ***** and it's easy to see why he may be a bit "sensitized" in some of his responses.

I received a PM on VU from him today entitled "Who the hell is GmElliot?" which (of course) I couldn't read but I'm sure he's asking what's up with this guy. I sent him a conventional email back to help him understand that he walked in on an ongoing conversation, missed a lot, and probably misunderstood what was happening. I't no secret, Glen, that I think you're a talented guy with the moxie to go places where others won't. The fact that you gave FCP a second shot testifies to this.

I've invited Ben to join is here at WVP and I'm sure you'll both come to respect and admire one another's differences as well as commonalities.

The whole incident reminded me of an attack I suffered from a guy in Alabama back when I started at VU; I made the mistake of offering well-intended criticism about a situation, he read me wrong and penned a scathing "how dare you" response that attacked everything about me except my manhood. How he missed that beats me... :wink: He too got hammered by Katrina, re-located, and we never resolved our misunderstanding. I feel badly about that, I'm sure he's a good guy. But if anyone ever wondered why I never posted on VU and kept myself busy working primarily on the technical side of things, this guy had a lot to do with it. I'd hate to see anything like that here...

I'm sure we'll all find ways to "just get along" and eventually all end up in the same Old Videographers Home. :)

[GmElliott]

Hey Glen,

I'm finding myself gravitating to this forum more often than others.

BTW, my workflow on editing clips into the timelime goes something like this.

1. Video is in Viewer
2. I scrub with the "J", "K", and "L" keys.
3. Use the "I" and "O" keys for my in & out edit point.
4. Use the "Y" key to drop the clip into the timeline (I customized that key in the tools).
5. Press the "Q" key to select the Viewer again (if you don't, then you'll scrub in the timeline).
6. Repeat until I've got the clips in the sequence I want to work on.

Kind of a quick rough edit. Drop what I want in and then fine tune them.

I was doing it your way (blade, roll, slide, etc.) but found this to be faster.

:)

For this particular edit I'd presume I may have chose the more effecient eay. Let me explain- it's a Nursing Awards ceremony at my Hospital (day-job) and is comprised soley of a single camera on a podium with various speeches, etc. I simply wanted to do clean-up editing (ie remove the pauses between the one speaker leaving the podium and the new one arriving).

Though the workflow you described sounds great for montage editing which I always wondered as well. These sort of things aren't necessarily covered in books ect. It's nice to hear feedback in regards to how an event videographer works in FCP. I really like the idea of scrubbing the viewer to cherry pick your good shots. It's the same thing I do in Vegas but much more efficient and well...CLEAN.

I do have one additional question however- when you scrub your footage and remove usable pieces from it- are you doing it any particular order (ie the order in which the clips will be used) or soley just to get all your usable clips dowon on the timeline before working? If it's the latter- have you ever used the ability to make subclips when working this way? Then again you could always dump all your "money" shots on a separate sequence and pull them from there into your timeline. The benefit I'd see in this rather than turning them into subclips is you have the ability to QUICKLY scrub across ALL of them contiguously rather than loading each individually into the viewer (after they are made subclips).

Sorry if this turned into a ramble. Sort of thinking out loud as well. Thank in advance Brian.

[GmElliott]

I kind of feel like I need to apologize to someone, but I'm not positive to whom...

Ben is a real decent guy and a certified trainer. He's also an ex-IT/unix type so he knows his beans. While he isn't as "antique" as I am, he's one of the few I know who is absolutely passionate about his Macs and FCP. Like me, he's been shot at a lot over the years for his NLE preference. Add to that his efforts to fully understand all things Mac and the fact that he's been dealing with the Katrina aftermath (he's from Louisiana) which has to be a ***** and it's easy to see why he may be a bit "sensitized" in some of his responses.

I received a PM on VU from him today entitled "Who the hell is GmElliot?" which (of course) I couldn't read but I'm sure he's asking what's up with this guy. I sent him a conventional email back to help him understand that he walked in on an ongoing conversation, missed a lot, and probably misunderstood what was happening. I't no secret, Glen, that I think you're a talented guy with the moxie to go places where others won't. The fact that you gave FCP a second shot testifies to this.

I've invited Ben to join is here at WVP and I'm sure you'll both come to respect and admire one another's differences as well as commonalities.

The whole incident reminded me of an attack I suffered from a guy in Alabama back when I started at VU; I made the mistake of offering well-intended criticism about a situation, he read me wrong and penned a scathing "how dare you" response that attacked everything about me except my manhood. How he missed that beats me... :wink: He too got hammered by Katrina, re-located, and we never resolved our misunderstanding. I feel badly about that, I'm sure he's a good guy. But if anyone ever wondered why I never posted on VU and kept myself busy working primarily on the technical side of things, this guy had a lot to do with it. I'd hate to see anything like that here...

I'm sure we'll all find ways to "just get along" and eventually all end up in the same Old Videographers Home. :)

Ouch I didn't even see that post from Ben until you replied here. My "unsettling results" were in regards to the way it wasn't even addressed at all on VU (and the fact it got prompt attention here).

I've gotten a negative vibe from him before but just not this blatant. I don't understand why he took offense. Does he think I'd be wasting my time trying to learn a new NLE right in the thick of wedding season if I "hated" it. I dislike certain aspects about it- just as I do with Vegas. There is no perfect NLE.

Many might wonder why go to FCP if you love Vegas so much and it has more than one answer:
1) I like the OS X platform in general better than Windows.
2) One of the biggest weaknesses of Vegas and my editing in particular is lack of good media management, and my sloppy timelines are a result of this.
3) Having the ability to NEST timelines is important to me- nested VEG files (Vegas's answer to nesting timelines) is broke. I've consistantly ran into crashed renders when outputting nested VEG files with no apparent fix from the Sony community.
4) Integration with other powerful "Studio" programs as well (DVSP, and Motion in particular)
5) Having FCP editing knowledge is a good move in regards to business. Not only is FCP one of the two NLE standards in production houses but many of the local talented videographers use FCP. That offers me robust local support and the opportunity to do contractual edititing if I so choose. Lastly, there are many talented FCP editors for hire where as Vegas is pretty much nill. I'm looking into the long-term for my business, which entails possibly hiring staff editors as well.

[D4rK F0CuS]

...
4. Use the "Y" key to drop the clip into the timeline (I customized that key in the tools).
5. Press the "Q" key to select the Viewer again (if you don't, then you'll scrub in the timeline).
This is a defining moment for me right now. Let me catch my breath at this most awesome discovery.

I can safely say my time here at WVP was indeed worth it for those two nuggets of information. That Q key will damn come in handy. I never heard of it, and I'm a FCP user since v 1.0 (haha. good memories of v.1 not have audio meters! :shock:)

I'll rep you for the "Y" key tip, as well.

[Brian]

I do have one additional question however- when you scrub your footage and remove usable pieces from it- are you doing it any particular order (ie the order in which the clips will be used) or soley just to get all your usable clips dowon on the timeline before working?

Typically I just scrub through the footage (sometimes a 2x speed) and find the shots I'd like to consider using. I dump them into sequences named "bride", "groom", "photo shoot", etc. From there I cut and paste into the acutal sequence I'm working on.

If it's the latter- have you ever used the ability to make subclips when working this way?

I have, but found that this method allows me to view all the footage that was shot. Some of which I see for the first time since my wife shoots the bridal prep and other things. I usually do the capture "Now" feature and walk away and them come back an hour later.

Then again you could always dump all your "money" shots on a separate sequence and pull them from there into your timeline. The benefit I'd see in this rather than turning them into subclips is you have the ability to QUICKLY scrub across ALL of them contiguously rather than loading each individually into the viewer (after they are made subclips).

Exactly! Kind of clunky but always looking to streamline the workflow. This has been an excellent thread for hearing how others do it.

[Brian]

I use the shuttlepro 2 and a 8 button logitech mouse and I hardly use the keyboard at all, with all the buttons dedicated to exact functions i never touch the keyboard......I really love the shuttlepro and all it can do with FCP.

Hey Rob,

I've had the Shuttle Pro on my wish list for a year and a half.

When I first started learning FCP (about a 1 1/2 years ago), I was determined to learn the keyboard shortcuts. I figured this would help me speed up the workflow.

Based on your post, I think I'll just order it now.

[RatVega]

I have, but found that this method allows me to view all the footage that was shot. Some of which I see for the first time since my wife shoots the bridal prep and other things. I usually do the capture "Now" feature and walk away and them come back an hour later.

We've been using a slightly different method of entry lately. On projects that warrant it, we still Log and Capture like good little boys and girls but for a lot of the "run and gun" footage we've found that we can streamline capture and still get what we need by:

Load the tapes without rewinding (we never view or rewind tapes in the cam)

Mark the Out at the last wanted frame (usually a few seconds before timecode end)

Manually set the In at 10 seconds

Use the Clip button to start the capture. This automatically rewinds and allowss the system to run to the end and stop unattended.

Use Mark>DV Start/Stop Detect to automatically mark the clips at the "trigger" points. Dragging a clip mark (click the disclosure triangle in fromt of the clip to reveal them) into the timeline gets you just that shot, or you can still double-click the entire clip into Viewer for overall viewing or searching and mark ins and outs as normal. Making Subclips (if you want to) is easy from there.

In response to DarkFocus' compliment to you, Brian, I'd add that none of us has every technique or answer. I encourage everyone to outline how they do a task; every now and then there's a gem like yours!

[Dee Boz]

Hey Glen,

I'm finding myself gravitating to this forum more often than others.

BTW, my workflow on editing clips into the timelime goes something like this.

1. Video is in Viewer
2. I scrub with the "J", "K", and "L" keys.
3. Use the "I" and "O" keys for my in & out edit point.
4. Use the "Y" key to drop the clip into the timeline (I customized that key in the tools).
5. Press the "Q" key to select the Viewer again (if you don't, then you'll scrub in the timeline).
6. Repeat until I've got the clips in the sequence I want to work on.

Kind of a quick rough edit. Drop what I want in and then fine tune them.

I was doing it your way (blade, roll, slide, etc.) but found this to be faster.

:)

Interesting dude.

Don't you use DV Start/Stop and then make subclips?

[D4rK F0CuS]

Don't you use DV Start/Stop and then make subclips?
I used to do DV Start/Stop, but it created too many markers. I'd end up just deleting most of them but keep the few that marked scene changes, like bridal prep to arrival at church. I just manual mark edits now, and I'm not too concerned with hitting on the right frame. Just very loose style of adding markers.

Subclips I've rarely used. I find subclips and media manager don't get along too well in previous versions of FCP. FCS media manager is getting better, but until the general consensus is that it is as good or better than Avid, I'll be on the sideline.

[D4rK F0CuS]

I really love the shuttlepro and all it can do with FCP.
I've been happy with JKL shortcut keys. (ie: holding down the K key, and tapping J or L to step through frames, [ and ] keys to ripple/nudge edit points and clips in the sequence timeline). And mousing in the scrubber bar to quickly jump to a section of video.

I'm interesting in looking at other options that could improve my workflow. Do you keep the shuttlepro on your right or left of your keyboard?

[Bonsai]

A little experiement I conducted had unsettling results. :(

http://www.videouniversity.com/forums/gforum.cgi?post=298025;#298025

Your experiment was nothing short of genius. And the results are, in fact, sadly astounding. The people on the free site took the time to give you accurate, lengthy answers. The paid (newly) paid site gave you one flip answer that (IMO) belittled you. Sigh. 'Nuff said.