Easiest Editing System?

[Jenny]

What is the easiest NLE system to lean and fastest to use?

Put aside the price and fancy effects, just based on ease of learning and fastest use of.

Also, it would help to know if you are currently using it and what other systems you know that you can compare it to.

Thanks!!!!!

[AndrewMSV]

You didn't mention what the software will be for. You didn't mention what platform. You didn't mention cost or any other factor.

So, if "easiest" is the only criteria, then I vote iMovie.

To answer your question about what I use and what my experiences have been, I have used Premiere 6.x, Canopus Edius 2.x and Pro3 as well as as iMovie.

[Jenny]

Easiest professional high-end software for editing 5 or more cameras.

Regardless of Price or Platform. Price is no object, just as long as it's under $20,000.

Also, if you could, along the lines of an old post by Andrew, what hardware etc. would you buy to go with it. Keeping under $20,000.

Considering:
FCP
Adobe
Vegas
Avid
Media 100

[Edward]

My vote would be Vegas. To see how multi-camera can be done, take a look at the multi-cam video at www.jetdv.com/excalibur

[AndrewMSV]

Considering:
FCP
Adobe
Vegas
Avid
Media 100
How come you're not considering Canopus Edius Pro4? It will do nested timelines and unlimited multi-cam editing. Also, it's all real-time and incredibly stable.

[Bill Grant]

I would also say Vegas. I have tried those others and was confounded. Vegas I picked up almost instantly. I'm sure there are some limitations to it, but I haven't found any.
Bill

[Jenny]

Thanks Bill and Edward! Glen also recently told me Vegas was much easier than FCP which was news to me. What hardware and accessories would you recommend as well as learning videos/tools. Thanks.

Andrew, I am open to it, is it the easiest and fastest?

[Jenny]

My vote would be Vegas. To see how multi-camera can be done, take a look at the multi-cam video at www.jetdv.com/excalibur (http://www.jetdv.com/excalibur)

Sorry for my ignorance. Is Excalibur 5 a add-on software to get that speeds up multicam function in Vegas?

[Bill Grant]

Jenny,
I run Vegas on a Pentium4 with 1.5GB of RAM. You really won't need anything special other than that. There should be still a 30-day trial on the website. www.sonymediasoftware.com (http://www.sonymediasoftware.com) there are alot of other programs with alot of fancy integration etc. but I found Vegas to be the easiest and that is what I use now. It really is great.
Bill

[Billy]

Have you ever taken a look at NewTek's VT? SpeedEdit is being touted as the fastest editor on the planet and was supposed to be released a couple of days ago but is pushed back to add new features, and probably to squash a few bugs. SpeedEdit will basically be stand-alone VT5, not needing a card to run.

We have a Matrox w/PPro 1.5 station and my producer has FCP. Both of us prefer the VT for ease of use and speed. A lot of our work depends on getting work out the door quick and I don't think it can be done any quicker than on a VT. The only time we use a non-VT station is when both of the VTs are tied up.

[Jenny]

Have you ever taken a look at NewTek's VT? SpeedEdit is being touted as the fastest editor on the planet and was supposed to be released a couple of days ago but is pushed back to add new features, and probably to squash a few bugs. SpeedEdit will basically be stand-alone VT5, not needing a card to run.



Cool, never heard of it. It looks very interesting, thanks!

[Pat Handley]

I am a lard head and I was able to pick up and use Vegas pretty quickly on my own (with some help from Edward Troxel's site). And Vegas system requirements are just about as low as it's operator requirements!

Good luck,
Pat

[Jenny]

Thanks Pat. It looks like it's between Vegas, NewTek VT5 and Media 100.

[chriswatson]

Hey Jenny,

I would second the rec for Edius 4.0. It's easy to pick up, real time, and very stable. www.canopus.com (http://www.canopus.com) has the full 30 day trial that you can download and play around with.

Chris Watson
Watson Videography

[Edward]

Sorry for my ignorance. Is Excalibur 5 a add-on software to get that speeds up multicam function in Vegas?

Yes. Excalibur is a third party product. I happen to like it (but, of course, I wrote it!) :innocent0007:

It provides may tools beyond multi-cam. Take a look at the "video scrapbook" video too!

[RatVega]

Easiest professional high-end software for editing 5 or more cameras.

Regardless of Price or Platform. Price is no object, just as long as it's under $20,000.

Also, if you could, along the lines of an old post by Andrew, what hardware etc. would you buy to go with it. Keeping under $20,000.

Considering:
FCP
Adobe
Vegas
Avid
Media 100

Hi Jenny...

We've talked so I know what you have, or at least what you had last year. I still respectfully advise against a Media 100 solution since they're getting a long ways from mainstream and are quite pricey.

The hardware question is pretty much a no-brainer in this case - the new Macs will run everything on your list because of their dual-boot capability. This give you the enviable advantage of having solid, dead-fast hardware whichever way the NLE software wind blows. And (according to Apple) a Dell of similar specification is about a thousand more than a Mac Pro...

As the resident Mac geek, you know I'll argue in favor of FCP because it's a great long term solution. But you said "easiest" and so let's say you get Vegas in spite of my whimpering and cajoling. If you like it, great... if it doesn't ring your bell and you decide to go Avid or FCP, you're out a few hundred bucks and an uninstall...

Just one guy's opinion...

[Dee Boz]

My vote would be Vegas. To see how multi-camera can be done, take a look at the multi-cam video at www.jetdv.com/excalibur

Wow..what a surprise that answer is.

Easiest to learn and then if you need to learn something else you have to unlearn everything your learned with Vegas.
:tongue3:

[chriswatson]

I think easy is a relative term. Vegas seems to be a totally different animal than most NLEs so I don't know if the migration from a traditional NLE to Vegas would be a smooth one. Still the software has alot of fans. Almost as fervent as the FCP crowd.

Chris Watson
Watson Videography
www.dallasweddingfilms.com

[MediaConcepts]

What is the easiest NLE system to lean and fastest to use?

Put aside the price and fancy effects, just based on ease of learning and fastest use of.

Also, it would help to know if you are currently using it and what other systems you know that you can compare it to.

Thanks!!!!!

Hi Jenny,

Shouldn't your question be "What is the best NLE system...? All NLE's have their learning curves especially when coming from a different platform. I know, I am an ex Media 100 editor.

I'd choose a NLE based on video quality, expandability, number of video formats supported, and how popular the system is in professional circles. I don't mean this as a popularity contest but as a measure to hire freelancers and get support. Right now I believe the most popular professional NLEs are Avid and Final Cut Pro.

You can take the time to learn any NLE, why not learn on the best?

Joe




As the resident Mac geek, you know I'll argue in favor of FCP because it's a great long term solution. But you said "easiest" and so let's say you get Vegas in spite of my whimpering and cajoling. If you like it, great... if it doesn't ring your bell and you decide to go Avid or FCP, you're out a few hundred bucks and an uninstall...

Just one guy's opinion...

I agree with Rat.

[bruceo]

Wow..what a surprise that answer is.

Easiest to learn and then if you need to learn something else you have to unlearn everything your learned with Vegas.
:tongue3:

Yeah sort of like giving up matches and going back to flint to make fire.:icon_cool:
I just did an Avid session with an Avid editor all yesterday afternoon. Holy crap! Felt like somebody was hacking my fingers off with the shears on a packing tape dispenser. 6 hours on my Avid and I show him how to do the same things in 1/5 the time in Vegas and within 15 minutes he said he wanted to learn vegas just from the few things I showed him.

[Jenny]

Hi Jenny,

Shouldn't your question be "What is the best NLE system...? All NLE's have their learning curves especially when coming from a different platform. I know, I am an ex Media 100 editor.

I agree with Rat.

Any of the top NLE are great systems and can do what I need them to do, edit high-end weddings. A fast and easy systems means I save time and saving time is more important to me than what is most popular, and most used.

Faster means turning my work around faster = happier clients.
Faster means less frustration = happier editor (me).
Faster means less time editing = more fun time for editor (me).
Faster means more money = :smile:


I agree that Rat made an excellent suggestion.

[MediaConcepts]

There's an old saying about NLE's and I believe it's still true. The old saying is: Things can be done fast, cheap or good - pick two.

Joe

[Billy]

There's an old saying about NLE's and I believe it's still true. The old saying is: Things can be done fast, cheap or good - pick two.

Joe
That probably sums it up for me. I wanted the fastest and best editor I could find, that's why I chose the VT and I haven't been disappointed. It's definitely not the cheapest but the savings in time for us has made it well worth it.

[Edward]

Wow..what a surprise that answer is.

Easiest to learn and then if you need to learn something else you have to unlearn everything your learned with Vegas.
:tongue3:

I knew everyone would be totally surprised by my answer.

[Jenny]

There's an old saying about NLE's and I believe it's still true. The old saying is: Things can be done fast, cheap or good - pick two.

Joe

I want fast and good, price is no object as long as it's under $20,000. I never asked for cheap, I'm not exactly cheap either.

[dpx]

(according to Apple) a Dell of similar specification is about a thousand more than a Mac Pro...

Actually, that is backwards.

As a potential purchaser of either one, I can tell you that a Dell of similar specification is, in fact, about a thousand bucks cheaper than a Mac Pro.

That being said, I would suggest to Jenny that she hop aboard the Apple Express and dive into FCP as it seems to be the NLE that spurs a higher quality of work.

[Daniel Runyon]

That being said, I would suggest to Jenny that she hop aboard the Apple Express and dive into FCP as it seems to be the NLE that spurs a higher quality of work.

I don't know about that, two of the best wedding editors in the history of the art cut on outdated versions of Premier. The quality is in the soul, the tool makes little difference, as near as I can tell... quality wise.

That being said, I will give a vouch for Vegas being the easiest to figure out and operate, overall.

[Jenny]

The quality is in the soul, the tool makes little difference, as near as I can tell... quality wise.

That being said, I will give a vouch for Vegas being the easiest to figure out and operate, overall.

That is what I am thinking, quality wise Vegas, NewTek VT5 and Media 100's newest will all give me the quality.

Does anyone other than Billy have experience with both the Video Toaster VT4 and Vegas? I would love to hear more opinions on the comparisons of the two. Again, speed, ease and stability are all important, not the price.

[chriswatson]

That is what I am thinking, quality wise Vegas, NewTek VT5 and Media 100's newest will all give me the quality.

Does anyone other than Billy have experience with both the Video Toaster VT4 and Vegas? I would love to hear more opinions on the comparisons of the two. Again, speed, ease and stability are all important, not the price.

Talk to Lance Gray over at PixelPops. He's been all about Newtek since the Amiga days and I can think of nobody better to talk to on VT 4. As for the other choices, you really can't go wrong with any of them. I would stay away from anything by Pinnacle as they've had a history with buggy software/hardware and the Matrox systems seem to be hit or miss. My advice would be to get a fully loaded Canopus Edius NX system with the HD component out and spend the remaining $15K on a new car/ HD equipment/ Dream Vacation/etc.

Chris Watson
Watson Videography
www.dallasweddingfilms.com

[Billy]

That is what I am thinking, quality wise Vegas, NewTek VT5 and Media 100's newest will all give me the quality.

Does anyone other than Billy have experience with both the Video Toaster VT4 and Vegas? I would love to hear more opinions on the comparisons of the two. Again, speed, ease and stability are all important, not the price.
I only have experience with the VT, FCP, and PPro 1.5. Never had a need or urge to try Vegas, but I think it'd be hard to convince me that Vegas would be easier to use, and I'm pretty sure it couldn't be faster.

But NewTek has a really good forum at http://www.newtek.com/forums/ where there's a lot of good people who have a lot of experience in a lot of different areas. I'm sure there's someone there who could give you their thoughts on how the 2 compare.

One really cool thing about the forum is that NewTek personnel frequent the forums all the time and you can get info straight from the horse's mouth, including the maketing director, sales director, tech people, and even the software engineer who's in charge of writing the code. They listen to what we have to say and are there to help with problems. They stand behind their products too - I had a problem with one of my boards a couple of years ago, so I overnighted it to them, they fixed it the next day and overnighted it back to me, and didn't charge me anything! They even fix old Amiga Toaster boards for free, and those have been out of production for several years now. I don't know any company who does that. Their tech support is free and upgrades are not expensive when they come out.

But the best way to really see what it's all about is to get a demo somewhere. I know what I say would never give it justice and it's really hard to see why it's so good until you get some hands-on time with one. It's not cheap, but if speed, quality, and stability are important, then IMO it's worth it.

I know most wedding videographers don't use it but a few I know who do are Brian Peterson, Eugene Kosarovich (NYC), and Fred Berney, who I believe is in Maryland. Another guy who I believe is in the DC area is Peter G. Benson.

[Billy]

Yeah, I forgot about Lance Gray. I was trying to think about someone closer to her area, though.

You can get a fully loaded turnkey VT for about $6-7K and still have all that money left over for the new car. :)

[chriswatson]

Yeah, I forgot about Lance Gray. I was trying to think about someone closer to her area, though.

You can get a fully loaded turnkey VT for about $6-7K and still have all that money left over for the new car. :)


Wish I had $20K to spend on an editing system. The mind boggles at how much power you can get for that much these days...


Chris Watson
Watson Videography

[Lance Gray]

Interesting you mention Vegas & VT...as just this past week I sent in my VT card (purchased in 1999) to get it working properly again (after 6 years, this is the first time I needed it tweaked -- sent on Tuesday, had it back on Thursday).

While it was at NewTek I used Vegas6 and I have to say...though Vegas is nice...the realtime abilities of VT4 (soon to be VT5) made me enjoy VT SO MUCH MORE than I ever had before. Don't get me wrong, Vegas is cool, but I seriously don't see how most of you edit in a non-realtime world.

The biggest thing for me with VT is being able to composite multiple Digital Juice clips in realtime. I'm constantly piling up 3 or 4 clips...moving them around...fading out edges to give a totally different look to imagery without having to sit there and render each time (that drove me c-r-a-z-y). With Vegas I just didn't have the control I wanted...at least from my very novice use of Vegas, but the bigger issue was the constant rendering that I'm just not used to. I guess I'm spoiled from that perspective. Ultimately, I'm anxious to see how SpeedEdit works...for VT users, it's the same interface, just without the Toaster card. I saw it at NAB2006 and it looked *very* fast and smooth. Regardless, the HD additions definitely have me anxious to see it (which I'll be reviewing it pretty soon for EventDV Magazine...so we'll see how it works out).

If you have specific questions Jenny...let me know, because yes, as far as "easy" -- all the VT controls are like the real modules...record panels look like record panels, etc. -- the learning curve is very small.

All my best,

Lance Gray
PixelPops Design, LLC

[Jenny]

Thank you everyone for your help!

Billy you have just about got me sold and I really appreciate our chat on the phone.

I love the fact that they really support their product, something Media 100 has severely lacked in their history.

I would love to get a demo and put my hands on one. I know Brian Peterson and Fred Berney. I will call them for more info. Thanks again everyone!

[Jenny]

Yeah, I forgot about Lance Gray. I was trying to think about someone closer to her area, though.

You can get a fully loaded turnkey VT for about $6-7K and still have all that money left over for the new car. :)

Thanks but I don't need a new car and I don't need to spend it all on a NLE system either. I just don't want price to keep me from getting the best system for me. If it saves me time, it will pay me back in more $$$.

[Jenny]

If you have specific questions Jenny...let me know, because yes, as far as "easy" -- all the VT controls are like the real modules...record panels look like record panels, etc. -- the learning curve is very small.



Thanks Vance, I just tried to call you but realized, you work out of a separate office and probably wouldn't be in on a Sunday night. I will try calling tomorrow.

I don't do fancy video work like you and I do very little rendering, Media 100 is pretty advanced there too. I assume it is still a faster and easier system to edit a wedding with than the Vegas?

Again, I shoot with around 5 cameras, 5 wireless microphones and do cuts, dissolves, a tiny bit of slow-mo and black and white. No Digital Juice or After Effects.

Thanks, Jenny

[RatVega]

Actually, that is backwards.

As a potential purchaser of either one, I can tell you that a Dell of similar specification is, in fact, about a thousand bucks cheaper than a Mac Pro.

No offense, but... remember, we're talking quad Xenon systems. I did a quick run through the Dell site and their cheapest quad Xenon was the Precision 490, which priced out to about $3300 just for the processors, 1GB of RAM, a 250GB system drive and a 256MB graphics board. The processor upgrade alone is nearly $900...

The base 2.66GHz Mac Pro /1GB/250GB/256MB graphics is $2499.

Neither system is what I'd consider "correctly configured for NLE" yet, but the two boxes are roughly equiv. There are always ways to cut a few corners, but the basics won't change much.

If this comes as a shock to you, be consoled by the fact that most Mac users were virtually dumbfounded by the new pricing. Happy, but dumbfounded.

[GmElliott]

Again, I shoot with around 5 cameras, 5 wireless microphones and do cuts, dissolves, a tiny bit of slow-mo and black and white. No Digital Juice or After Effects.

Thanks, Jenny

Oooop! You just gave up your secret Jenny! Now EVERYONE know your "secrets". :wink: *jk*

Anyway, seriously though even though I've recently made a switch from Vegas on a PC to Final Cut Pro on Mac I can honestly say Vegas is your best choice.

Daniel brings up a good point in that Vegas is so bass ackwards from any other NLE you've worked with it may actually seem more difficult. However it's Vegas's "different" approach which truly makes it a brilliant program.

Here are some bullet points that come to mind:

- Vegas is format agnostic. Drop a DV file, MPG, WMV, MOV, WAV, MP3, AIF, etc and it won't greet you with any annoying render bars. You can even drop VOB files directly on the timeline and start cutting them without a lick of rendering. It's a nice feeling to know you don't have to worry about any red render bars on non-conforming audio. Heck FCP doesn't even like the most common digital audio format- MP3s. :sad-smiley-018:

- Editing workflow is simple and straight forward. Overlap two clips and the overlap is automatically a cross dissolve. No need to wrestle with having the correct length of handles or worrying about unwanted frames (ie with camera shake, etc) ending up being introduced in the head or tail of transition frames after you apply the transition.

- Zooming in and out of the timline in infinitely easier. I know Option + and - are good shortcuts for zooming in and out of the timeline but no where NEAR as effective and efficient as the scroll wheel being mapped to the timeline zoom command.

- Pan/Crop eats FCP's Motion tab for lunch. Doing animtated (Ken Burns) photo montages are incredibly easy to produce, and don't produce snags which require annoying and time-consuming work arounds like the Motion tab in FCP.

- Audio capability. Vegas, hands down, without a shred of doubt is the strongest performer in regards to processing audio. In fact the many ways it acts as an editor that are "different" are actually in accordance with the way audio editing programs work and their concepts in dealing with media and layers. For example I found many parallells between Apples Soundtrack Pro and Vegas. Many things that I wish FCP would impliment.

- Slow Motion. Vegas's options for adjusting the speed of clips are much better than any other NLE that I know of. You can a) Change the percentage speed of a clip....b) Ctrl + Drag the edge of a clip to change it's speed (dragging the clip longer makes it slower and the opposite for dragging it shorter)....c) Velocity Envelopes. They do what FCP's variable speed option only wishes and is very easy and logically designed.

- Multicam. While many other NLE's offer this natively Vegas has an open architecture that allows people to custom write scripts to perform various editing tasks. Don't be turned off by the sound of that- these custom scripts are packaged in clean, easy to navigate GUIs that look and act just like any other "plug-in". Excalibur's mulitcam is still more powerfull than anything offered natively by any other NLE. Not to mention the bazillions of other tools that come with it.

- Scalability. Vegas have very conservative requirements. It doesn't require gobs of ram or the fastests processors. In other words it'll run smooth on almost any config you install it on. Your price range is OVERKILL- you could build/buy a system for fractions less and get blazing performance.

Don't get me wroing I'm not downing FCP. That would be silly because I, in fact, chose to move to it as my primary NLE. The reasoning for doing so wasn't the same reasoning your citing for your next NLE. I whole-heartedly think Vegas is BY FAR your best choice for the needs that you have. Plus you'll get great support from it's many users here.

Good luck with whatever you choose. The biggest downside if you choose Vegas is that you'll be on PC and not Mac. :grinning-smiley-021

[Jenny]

Thank you Glen and everyone!

I have had some amazing help from many folks. Very strong recommendations for Vegas, FCP, Premier Pro, NewTek and Media 100. All from people I highly respect. It makes this decision even harder to make.

I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to help me.

[Terry T.]

Oooop! You just gave up your secret Jenny! Now EVERYONE know your "secrets". :wink: *jk*

Anyway, seriously though even though I've recently made a switch from Vegas on a PC to Final Cut Pro on Mac I can honestly say Vegas is your best choice.

. :grinning-smiley-021

Gm, that's alot of useful information on Vegas.
Do you wish you would have stayed with Vegas? :confused:

[Bill Grant]

G,
For the very little it may be worth to Jenny, I second and third all of your recommendations. I have no training or experience in any previous NLE and I have jumped right in to Vegas and feel very comfortable doing all of those things that Glenn outlined above. If nothing else works this way, i can't even imagine as a newbie learning anything else. It is awesome...
Bill

[GmElliott]

Gm, that's alot of useful information on Vegas.
Do you wish you would have stayed with Vegas? :confused:

Hey Terry. Not at all. There are some serious nicks in FCP that bother me but contrary to what it must seem- the benefits outweigh the negatives. I've gone into what the "positives" were on the MAC forum here if your interested. I don't want to hijack this thread.

Overall I like FCP Studio better than Vegas+DVD. As NLEs- Vegas VS FCP I'd have to say they are neck and neck. It's very much a double edged sword in many areas. One will do one thing better and vice versa for another. It's the other supporting programs that tip the scales in FCP's favor.

[EVIDEONJ]

Oh Glen, you make my heart smile.

[Dave Williams]

Our sleepovers won't be as fun if we don't have something fun to talk about like "Is exporting to QT and running a batch compressor more efficient than just compressing from the FCP timeline and importing that into DVDSP?"

If you ever want to sleep with me again, you'll get Final Cut Pro.

[Steve Moses]

Jenny, what have you been using and why do you want to change?

[Jenny]

Jenny, what have you been using and why do you want to change?


I have been editing with Media 100 since 1995. I love my Media 100i xr except for the fact that it is limited to two video tracks. That makes editing with 5 cameras very slow.

I am seriously considering the Media 100 HDe. I have had equally strong arguments for Newtek SpeedEdit, Vegas, Premier Pro and FCP.

[Scott S]

Actually, that is backwards.

As a potential purchaser of either one, I can tell you that a Dell of similar specification is, in fact, about a thousand bucks cheaper than a Mac Pro.

That being said, I would suggest to Jenny that she hop aboard the Apple Express and dive into FCP as it seems to be the NLE that spurs a higher quality of work.


That's wrong....if the dell you calculated really is $1000 cheaper than the macpro then your dell is vastly inferior. You can go to the dell site and figure it properly....just be sure that the dell actually has all the same stuff as the mac.

Scott

[dpx]

No offense, but... remember, we're talking quad Xenon systems. I did a quick run through the Dell site and their cheapest quad Xenon was the Precision 490, which priced out to about $3300 just for the processors, 1GB of RAM, a 250GB system drive and a 256MB graphics board. The processor upgrade alone is nearly $900...

The base 2.66GHz Mac Pro /1GB/250GB/256MB graphics is $2499.

Neither system is what I'd consider "correctly configured for NLE" yet, but the two boxes are roughly equiv. There are always ways to cut a few corners, but the basics won't change much.

If this comes as a shock to you, be consoled by the fact that most Mac users were virtually dumbfounded by the new pricing. Happy, but dumbfounded.

eh?
Actually, we're not talking quad Xenon systems.
On the Apple store site, all I see are 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo Macbook Pros.
Spec out about the similar Dell at dell.com and it will be about 1K cheaper.

Are you comparing computers that aren't even available yet? In that case, you can make up any lame price you want since it hasn't hit yet retail market pricing to "console" yourself.

[dpx]

just be sure that the dell actually has all the same stuff as the mac.

Scott

Like what? Gold-plated USB ports?

At least they both have exploding batteries.

[dpx]

from http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/inspn_9400?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Dell Inspiron 9400
Date & Time: October 10,2006 1:29 AM CST

SYSTEM COMPONENTS
Inspiron 9400 Qty 1
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7400 (4MB Cache/2.16GHz/667MHz FSB), Genuine Windows XP Professional Unit Price $2,082.00
$250 OFF when priced $1199 or above!
Special offer
- $250.00

Catalog Number: 4 I9400HI
Module Description Show Details
Inspiron 9400 Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7400 (4MB Cache/2.16GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included) Genuine Windows XP Professional
LCD Panel 17 inch Wide Screen XGA+ Display
Memory 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz
Graphics Card 256MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7900 GS
Hard Drive 120GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
Network Card Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Optical Drive 8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Sound Options Integrated Audio
Wireless Networking Cards Dell Wireless 1390 802.11g Mini Card (54Mbps)
Office Software (not included in Windows XP) No productivity suite- Includes Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) No Security Subscription
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
SERVICES & SUPPORT PLANS 1 Year Mail-in Economy Plan
Dial-Up Internet Access 6 Months of America Online Membership Included
Miscellaneous Inspiron 9400 Dual
Financial Software No QuickBooks package selected
Future Operating Systems Windows Vista™ Capable
Operating System Re-Installation CD PC Restore recovery system by Symantec
Purchase Intent Purchase is not intended for resale.
Processor Branding Intel Core 2 Duo Processor

TOTAL:$1,832.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/0.RSLID?mco=925997E8&nclm=MacBookPro
17-inch 2.16GHz Intel Duo Core Macbook Pro

Specifications

2.16GHz Intel Core Duo
1GB 667 DDR2 - 1 SO-DIMM
120GB Serial ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
MacBook Pro 17-inch Widescreen Display
SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
AirPort Extreme Card & Bluetooth
17-inch TFT Display

Subtotal $2,799.00

The Dell has a better processor(Core 2 vs. Core Duo), more RAM, a better graphics card and more bundled accessories for almost 1K less.
What am I missing here?

[RatVega]

from http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/inspn_9400?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Dell Inspiron 9400
Date & Time: October 10,2006 1:29 AM CST

SYSTEM COMPONENTS
Inspiron 9400 Qty 1
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7400 (4MB Cache/2.16GHz/667MHz FSB), Genuine Windows XP Professional Unit Price $2,082.00
$250 OFF when priced $1199 or above!
Special offer
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Catalog Number: 4 I9400HI
Module Description Show Details
Inspiron 9400 Intel® Core™ 2 Duo processor T7400 (4MB Cache/2.16GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included) Genuine Windows XP Professional
LCD Panel 17 inch Wide Screen XGA+ Display
Memory 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz
Graphics Card 256MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7900 GS
Hard Drive 120GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
Network Card Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Optical Drive 8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Sound Options Integrated Audio
Wireless Networking Cards Dell Wireless 1390 802.11g Mini Card (54Mbps)
Office Software (not included in Windows XP) No productivity suite- Includes Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) No Security Subscription
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
SERVICES & SUPPORT PLANS 1 Year Mail-in Economy Plan
Dial-Up Internet Access 6 Months of America Online Membership Included
Miscellaneous Inspiron 9400 Dual
Financial Software No QuickBooks package selected
Future Operating Systems Windows Vista™ Capable
Operating System Re-Installation CD PC Restore recovery system by Symantec
Purchase Intent Purchase is not intended for resale.
Processor Branding Intel Core 2 Duo Processor

TOTAL:$1,832.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/0.RSLID?mco=925997E8&nclm=MacBookPro
17-inch 2.16GHz Intel Duo Core Macbook Pro

Specifications

2.16GHz Intel Core Duo
1GB 667 DDR2 - 1 SO-DIMM
120GB Serial ATA drive @ 5400 rpm
MacBook Pro 17-inch Widescreen Display
SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
AirPort Extreme Card & Bluetooth
17-inch TFT Display

Subtotal $2,799.00

The Dell has a better processor(Core 2 vs. Core Duo), more RAM, a better graphics card and more bundled accessories for almost 1K less.
What am I missing here?

er... you're missing the point that we were discussing quad-processor systems, not laptops. Even as far as laptops have come, I don't think that any of them will run in the same league with the quads if the later are configured for serious video editing. Most recent systems are utilizing about twice the RAM you spec (or more) and multiple 7200 RPM (or faster) disks, multiple displays, etc.

I'm not saying that a lappie isn't capable of decent cutting, just that it's not the same level of resource. There is a reason that editors are turning to loaded quad systems and it's not ego.

[dpx]

ah, ok. When you said Mac Pro, I thought you meant Macbook Pro.

That being said, even you have to admit, given the specs and pricing laid out in front of your eyes up above, that Dell is giving it to Apple up the rectum intestinum in the laptop department.

[gl]

ah, ok. When you said Mac Pro, I thought you meant Macbook Pro.

That being said, even you have to admit, given the specs and pricing laid out in front of your eyes up above, that Dell is giving it to Apple up the rectum intestinum in the laptop department.


Actually, does Dell offer a laptop with the cpu power, graphics power, and form factor of the MBP? Nope. Doesn't exist. Dell has really disappointed me over the last few years because all of their "workstation class" laptops are HUGE (and ugly but that is subjective). I have had several collegues and family get the Dell 1705 and that is a very large, heavy notebook.

Now, If you are comparing appropriately, you would put the the Dell M-series against the MBP, not the Inspirons. An equivilent M65 is more $$ than the 15" $2,499 and has a less potent video card. The M90 has an awesome video card but also weighs in at 12+ Lbs, exceedingly large and costs about $500 more than the top of the line MBP with the same config.

The old "PCs are cheaper" mantra just doesn't apply at this level. Sure, you can get a $899 laptop from Dell but, it is not in the same category as the MBP...more like te Macbook...only not as cool looking ;)

Yes, I own a MBP but I also own PCs and build them regularly. It was very suprising to me when I discovered I could not even build a PC equivilent of the MacPro for the same price as what Apple charges for it.

-gl

[gl]

I would submit that *any* NLE is easy to use once you get the hang of it ;) The point being that I would look at the long term outcomes as well as the ramp up time. There are significantly more factors to be considered in this. To me, speed comes to play in a number of places along the workflow and it is not *just* raw rendering power or perceived ease of use although they are certainly factors.

I use to edit on Media 100XLs and thought it was perfect not because of the effects rendering but the workflow I had developed that felt very fluid. Then, FCP came along and showed me new possibilities and introduced some new problems but, after using it for several years I find it also to be very fluid in terms of overall workflow and gnash my teeth when I have to move to anything else. I have used RT editing systems and marveled at the speed but still couldn't stand them when I attempted to do just basic editing - they didn't work the way my hands wanted it to - so the speed in RT effects was lost on me.

Why is that? It's because I found I could translate my general process from M100 to FCP. I also had Avid and Premiere experience that seemed to translate and I ended up with a new, more efficient approach to post production - for me. I believe the reasons were that I could operate in my preferred OS (OS X), use all of my preferred tools in easy coordination with the hub (NLE), and it was also reasonably fast. I also found it to have very advanced siblings in delivering my product like DVD SP (I *heart* this program). These are *my* reasons for making a successful transition to a new NLE. I could do the same to another one as well but I need to have a lot of the checklist checked off in order for it to happen as smoothly. I think the same could be true of someone moving from say Avid to Premiere or Vegas to Canopus if they had enough of the total workflow consideration translating as well.

So, I would say that choosing an NLE is a choice made up of a bunch of balanced elements. Do not discount your previous experience because it will be a factor. Do not discount less obvious aspects to speed like media management, tool integration, platform preference, system support, etc. Do not discount the other tools required to deliver your product: Encoding, DVD Authoring, Web delivery, etc.

No NLE is an island anymore...it's JFK international and the better the flow of the whole, the faster the product delivery.

-gl

[MediaConcepts]

I would submit that *any* NLE is easy to use once you get the hang of it ;) The point being that I would look at the long term outcomes as well as the ramp up time. There are significantly more factors to be considered in this. To me, speed comes to play in a number of places along the workflow and it is not *just* raw rendering power or perceived ease of use although they are certainly factors.
-gl

Well said. I guess an analogy would be buying a race car with an automatic transmission, because it's easier to drive, but then realizing that you're not competitive because all the other cars have manual transmissions.

Joe
(Wannabe race car driver)

[Jenny]

Excellent points gl! Thank you for posting, all good things to think about.

I think I will be getting the new Mac and FCP, that also gives me the option to try the others out.

Thank you to everyone who has helped with advice.

[Maureen]

If you do get FCP, I heartily recommend the Apple Pro Training Series books to get up to speed. Most important, learn those keyboard shortcuts. We will be there for you, Jenny.

[RatVega]

Well said. I guess an analogy would be buying a race car with an automatic transmission, because it's easier to drive, but then realizing that you're not competitive because all the other cars have manual transmissions.

Joe
(Wannabe race car driver)
Or to look at the opposite side, running a drag car with a manual transmission only to realize that in your class everyone is winning with modified automatics and that the only competitive manuals are way expensive and limited in application... (this started as a wiseguy ex-drag racer comment but has a point: it all depends on what you're trying to do...)

To Jenny and Maureen:
"He who knows the most keyboard shortcuts... wins!" - Steve Martin at a Los Angeles Final Cut Pro User Group meeting. :icon_cool:

[vegas06]

Sorry for my ignorance. Is Excalibur 5 a add-on software to get that speeds up multicam function in Vegas?

Jenny,
Yes Excalibur 5 is an add on plugin for Vegas, just one of the growing many.

Also take a look at Ultimate S 2.0 from VASST. It has multicam, lower thirds, montage builder, audio plugins and more.

http://vasst.com/product.aspx?id=c8cec3c4-7ec3-43db-8d32-f703f5050400

They also have many other useful plugins for Vegas as well. Not really all that expensive coparitaively speaking.

[dpx]

If you are comparing appropriately, you would put the Dell M-series against the MBP, not the Inspirons.

What's your reasoning behind that?

Based on the specs above, it looks like the Inspiron kicks that crap out of the MBP on every level including cpu power, gfx card and even the main one: price.

[gl]

What's your reasoning behind that?

Based on the specs above, it looks like the Inspiron kicks that crap out of the MBP on every level including cpu power, gfx card and even the main one: price.

Have you actually used a 9400? They are HUGE, they eat batteries for lunch and they weigh in at 12Lbs with a dvd-drive and battery. It goes back to what I was originally saying. Dell doesn't know how to make a powerful COMPLETE mobile workstation that is light-weight and well-designed. They specialize in the other criteria (Good, fast, cheap).

For some, they will not care as they jsut leave their notebook on a desk and plugged in most of the time. For me, mine goes everywhere with me and there is no way I would subject my back to that kind of abuse. OTOH I know several members of this forum and VU have the 9300/9400 and enjoy them. I of course am not trying to talk you out of purchasing it. I am just pointing out that there are tangible reasons why you would choose the MBP over the Dell and it's not just because it runs OS X, even though that is plenty of reason alone ;)

-gl

[dpx]

Actually, the last laptop I used was a gargantuan 17" Powerbook that couldn't hold a charge to save it's life.

You still didn't answer my question and you have yet to list any tangible reason other than the Inspiron is "HUGE" which it isn't when compared to a 17" MBP.

Listed dimension for an Inspiron 9400:
Weight & Dimensions
Starting at 7.94 lbs.4 and 1.6" thin
1.60"(h) x 15.50"(w) x 11.30"(d)


Listed dimensions for a 17-inch MacBook Pro:
Height: 1.0 inch (2.59 cm)
Width: 15.4 inches (39.2 cm)
Depth: 10.4 inches (26.5 cm)
Weight: 6.8 pounds (3.1 kg) with battery and optical drive installed

Hardly a back buster when you consider there is more power packed into the Inspiron for less $$$. All I'm hearing is bias based on opinion. Show me the facts.

[gl]

Actually, the last laptop I used was a gargantuan 17" Powerbook that couldn't hold a charge to save it's life.

You still didn't answer my question and you have yet to list any tangible reason other than the Inspiron is "HUGE" which it isn't when compared to a 17" MBP.

Listed dimension for an Inspiron 9400:
Weight & Dimensions
Starting at 7.94 lbs.4 and 1.6" thin
1.60"(h) x 15.50"(w) x 11.30"(d)


Listed dimensions for a 17-inch MacBook Pro:
Height: 1.0 inch (2.59 cm)
Width: 15.4 inches (39.2 cm)
Depth: 10.4 inches (26.5 cm)
Weight: 6.8 pounds (3.1 kg) with battery and optical drive installed

Hardly a back buster when you consider there is more power packed into the Inspiron for less $$$. All I'm hearing is bias based on opinion. Show me the facts.

Def, this is bias based on experience. I have setup a number of clients and others in the very laptop you are reffering to and it is big and heavy - no bones about it. However, I am still not trying to sway anyone. I am merely sharing my own experience and observations. I bought my MBP because I was more interested in true mobility. I decided I was more interested in a thin, lightwieght notebook that had all the connectivity I needed for a mobile setup. I don't have to compare performance numbers because they are goign to be so close it's irrelevent. I *do* like the flexibility of having either OS available. I do *love* the form factor of the MBP. What I missed on the MBP compared to the M90 (What I would compare it to and which uses the same chassis as the 9400) is the Quadro 2500m, which is an amazing pixel pusher in Maya and a very good deal in terms of service options.

Just so you know, I run both WinXP and OS X regularly so this is not Mac evangelism. The MBP was the notebook that met my criteria. Dell did not. I was honestly very interested in the 9300/9400 when it first arrived but after seeing it in action many times I was turned off by the size and weight. Nevertheless, I hope you enjoy yours emmensely and the fact that I paid more for mine :)

I do suggest you find someone who owns one first before buying it and give it a test drive. You may find the size to be far less of a factor for you when you stare at the 17" screen. I have two family members who both own it and they still enjoy it but, they admit to considering it''s size as a decision factor as to whether they take it along with them. I carry mine in a sleeve inside my messenger bag and often have to double check that I have it inside :)

-gl

[gl]

One other thing...

I own the 15" MBP as I do not like the 17" for the dimensions of it so, I am probably far more sensitive than others on this issue. THe 17" MBP is certainly thin but it is heavier and just too awkward for my useage - although I would welcome the FW800 port.

Just so you know where I am coming from...

-gl

[gl]

One other warning based on experience,

The paint on the handrest areas of the 9300 have shown semi-heavy wear
after 6 months or so useage. This was from three different machines that were all primary workstations. It also showed signs of wear on the top near
the edges from where it was rubbing in a bag. I recommend getting a sleeve for it to live inside that will prevent this.

-gl

[dpx]

gl,

I agree with you that a 17" laptop isn't the most practical solution for a mobile user. A 15" laptop is more practical.

But you are comparing a 15" MBP to a 17" Dell and complaining about the heaviness and bulkiness of the Dell. After using a 15" laptop, any 17" laptop would seem heavy, bulky and awkward. Not really a fair comparison in that department.

After all this discussion and assertions that Apple computers are cheaper than Dells, nobody has offered any substantial evidence to this.

This leads me to conclude that my initial statement was correct, Dell laptop's are more powerpacked dollar for dollar than MBP's are.

[dpx]

Just to add further fuel to the fire:

http://a221.g.akamai.net/f/221/23830/v0001/msnuuv1.download.akamai.com/23830/thumbs/prod/f1/44/d2/3101c07e-c3eb-49aa-9610-f80f40d244f1.jpg (http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=3101c07e-c3eb-49aa-9610-f80f40d244f1)
Video: Mac attack (http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=3101c07e-c3eb-49aa-9610-f80f40d244f1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axC-7O4Yq-w

[gl]

That isn't even lingering embers of a fire...about 3 years old. Nice try though :)


-gl

[dpx]

That isn't even lingering embers of a fire...about 3 years old. Nice try though :)


-gl

Sorry gl,
it wasn't my intention to kill your inner child.

This might make you feel better:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1215065532862862958

[mazzystar]

all things said.

i'm pretty happy with my xps 1210. rendrers through magic bullet like it was just slomo.

[bruceo]

After all this discussion and assertions that Apple computers are cheaper than Dells, nobody has offered any substantial evidence to this.



Stevie J said it was cheaper. He's never been known to hype anything.... Just ask Billy G:icon_eek:

[GmElliott]

All this jibber jabber about which is cheaper- if you want cheap go E-Machine! You can get a full system with monitor for around 5 bills USD. ;)

[RatVega]

Just to add further fuel to the fire:

http://a221.g.akamai.net/f/221/23830/v0001/msnuuv1.download.akamai.com/23830/thumbs/prod/f1/44/d2/3101c07e-c3eb-49aa-9610-f80f40d244f1.jpg (http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=3101c07e-c3eb-49aa-9610-f80f40d244f1)
Video: Mac attack (http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=3101c07e-c3eb-49aa-9610-f80f40d244f1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axC-7O4Yq-w

Was that you? or a relative?

I laughed myself silly... not at the Mac but at the Bozo who doesn't seems to find running one difficult.

My wife has a computer lab at very highly respected Alternative Grade School. She has about 40 PCs and a "mini-lab" with some G4s and a G5 committed to video editing for her advanced 5th and 6th graders (they make their own video yearbooks.) The competition to get on the Macs is intense. The 4th graders are p!ssed because they're stuck on PowerPoint... The notion that a grown (and apparently normal) man finds it difficult to find and press the "cloverleaf + period" (they're next to each other) is a scream! I had to stop during the part where the guy was implying that a Mac was counter-intuitive; this from someone raised on a system where you had to give the location of a document in order to "search" it...

We had a PC freak as a house guest for about 9 months who needed access to the net and whined at the lack of a PC. She was critical of the one-button mouse, the lack of that droll windows saver bar, seemed to dislike everything different about the mac except the lack of virii and crashing. She left us recently and one of her last requests was that I spec out a new Mac for her - she's on a budget and wanted the best value. We settled on a dual processor iMac which was comparable in price to a "nice
HP" but more compact and as she put it "has no ongoing cost for anti-virus software." She also thought it was much nicer looking... :smile:

Has a Mac ever crashed? Absolutely. Asking the same question of a system that originated "the blue screen of death" is pointless. Everything will crash under some circumstance.

As far as costs go, PCs will always be "cheaper" for cheap machines (negative connotation of "cheap" intended.) This is like arguing that other MP3 players are cheaper and therefore better than an iPod. There are some very nice PCs out there just as there are Macs but they're not cheap. Quality isn't free. The new Macs are nice enough that even MacOS-haters are buying them to run XP on...

Perhaps the funniest part of this whole thing is that as the two platforms get so similar that native dual-booting is now possible, you're still trying to make a case that Macs are somehow inferior. If better quality and its inherent higher cost equate to something bad in your book, you must really have a case against Boxx Systems too...

Listen to gl, he's played both sides...

[Bonsai]

My wife has a computer lab at very highly respected Alternative Grade School. She has about 40 PCs and a "mini-lab" with some G4s and a G5 committed to video editing for her advanced 5th and 6th graders (they make their own video yearbooks.) The competition to get on the Macs is intense. The 4th graders are p!ssed because they're stuck on PowerPoint... The notion that a grown (and apparently normal) man finds it difficult to find and press the "cloverleaf + period" (they're next to each other) is a scream! I had to stop during the part where the guy was implying that a Mac was counter-intuitive; this from someone raised on a system where you had to give the location of a document in order to "search" it...
Funny you should mention schools. My youngest daughter goes to a Catholic elementary school, and they have a computer class... all Macs. (Thank God...no pun intended)

We had a PC freak as a house guest for about 9 months who needed access to the net and whined at the lack of a PC. She was critical of the one-button mouse, the lack of that droll windows saver bar, seemed to dislike everything different about the mac except the lack of virii and crashing. She left us recently and one of her last requests was that I spec out a new Mac for her - she's on a budget and wanted the best value. We settled on a dual processor iMac which was comparable in price to a "nice
HP" but more compact and as she put it "has no ongoing cost for anti-virus software." She also thought it was much nicer looking... :smile:
There's no better feeling than converting somebody (without resorting to brainwashing!) One of my best friends just decided to get into the 20th century, and asked me what to buy for a computer. I started her off with a Mac Mini, and she has done nothing but rave about how easy everything is. Her 15 year old daughter whined at first, actually thought she couldn't have AOL Instant Messenger and Word, if they got a Mac. (silly mortals)


As far as costs go, PCs will always be "cheaper" for cheap machines (negative connotation of "cheap" intended.) This is like arguing that other MP3 players are cheaper and therefore better than an iPod. There are some very nice PCs out there just as there are Macs but they're not cheap. Quality isn't free. The new Macs are nice enough that even MacOS-haters are buying them to run XP on...
The PC may be cheaper at the store...but what about in the long run? And can you put a price on "ease of use"?



Listen to gl, he's played both sides...
I'm a convert myself, (approx. 4 years of exclusive Mac) and I get the heebie jeebies when I HAVE to use a PC (like at work).

[AndrewMSV]

How this thread became a PC versus Mac thread is pretty funny.
I guess all human conflict boil down to this one argument. :-D

[kirklandvideo]

Twelve months of Mac ownership and still very happy to have switched. I still edit on a Windows PC though as I've just way too much invested there to change now, but I want to spend as little time in Windows as I possibly can.

Now if I could just get my wife to switch... she's clinging deperately to her old 800mhz PC and refuses to even try the Mac....

[kirklandvideo]

How this thread became a PC versus Mac thread is pretty funny.
I guess all human conflict boil down to this one argument. :-D
I used to think "Those Mac guys are crazy... who cares that much about a computer", but now I'm a converted Mac evangelist... I'll never rest until the whole world is just one big happy Mac using family :-)

[dpx]

Was that you? or a relative?

I laughed myself silly... not at the Mac but at the Bozo who doesn't seems to find running one difficult.

My wife has a computer lab at very highly respected Alternative Grade School. She has about 40 PCs and a "mini-lab" with some G4s and a G5 committed to video editing for her advanced 5th and 6th graders (they make their own video yearbooks.) The competition to get on the Macs is intense. The 4th graders are p!ssed because they're stuck on PowerPoint... The notion that a grown (and apparently normal) man finds it difficult to find and press the "cloverleaf + period" (they're next to each other) is a scream! I had to stop during the part where the guy was implying that a Mac was counter-intuitive; this from someone raised on a system where you had to give the location of a document in order to "search" it...

We had a PC freak as a house guest for about 9 months who needed access to the net and whined at the lack of a PC. She was critical of the one-button mouse, the lack of that droll windows saver bar, seemed to dislike everything different about the mac except the lack of virii and crashing. She left us recently and one of her last requests was that I spec out a new Mac for her - she's on a budget and wanted the best value. We settled on a dual processor iMac which was comparable in price to a "nice
HP" but more compact and as she put it "has no ongoing cost for anti-virus software." She also thought it was much nicer looking... :smile:

Has a Mac ever crashed? Absolutely. Asking the same question of a system that originated "the blue screen of death" is pointless. Everything will crash under some circumstance.

As far as costs go, PCs will always be "cheaper" for cheap machines (negative connotation of "cheap" intended.) This is like arguing that other MP3 players are cheaper and therefore better than an iPod. There are some very nice PCs out there just as there are Macs but they're not cheap. Quality isn't free. The new Macs are nice enough that even MacOS-haters are buying them to run XP on...

Perhaps the funniest part of this whole thing is that as the two platforms get so similar that native dual-booting is now possible, you're still trying to make a case that Macs are somehow inferior. If better quality and its inherent higher cost equate to something bad in your book, you must really have a case against Boxx Systems too...

Wow. Someone's awfully defensive.
If a couple of old clips set you off, you must be in full fledged denial mode.

This was never a PC Vs. Mac debate. Go back and read my first post in this thread, genius.

This was about people like you presenting misinformation as fact. Macs are not $1000 cheaper than a similarly spec'd out Dell contrary to your own personal bias.

Listen to gl, he's played both sides...
I don't want to know what you two do behind closed doors. :innocent0007:

[Bonsai]

How this thread became a PC versus Mac thread is pretty funny.
I guess all human conflict boil down to this one argument. :-D

The "easiest editing" part got beat to death, so the thread just took a turn, I guess. It's still interesting, IMO. :wink:

[RatVega]

Wow. Someone's awfully defensive.
If a couple of old clips set you off, you must be in full fledged denial mode.

This was never a PC Vs. Mac debate. Go back and read my first post in this thread, genius.

This was about people like you presenting misinformation as fact. Macs are not $1000 cheaper than a similarly spec'd out Dell contrary to your own personal bias.


I don't want to know what you two do behind closed doors. :innocent0007:

Apparently rude works for you when you can't come up with a decent counter... You contested the fact that a Mac might be less expensive than a Dell, then tried to incite things with the clips. You sought to make it a Mac vs. PC thing.

If you were to go back (as you suggested I do) and read my post, I said that a Mac Pro (which is a quad Xenon) was about $1000 less than a similarily configured Dell quad Xenon. That isn't personal bias, it's what the Dell site tells me.

As Glen and several others have noted, there are a lot of "cheap" PCs out there when spec is no issue. However, "cheap" was never a criterion in Jenny's original question since her goal of staying under $20K can be met by pretty much everyone.

On your final comment, I'll overlook your extremely poor taste...

[dpx]

Apparently rude works for you when you can't come up with a decent counter... You contested the fact that a Mac might be less expensive than a Dell, then tried to incite things with the clips. You sought to make it a Mac vs. PC thing.

Rude? You were the one that made it personal. Read your last post, genius.

Those clips were made by disenchanted Mac users, period. They were not made by PC lovers. It's pretty funny how you're projecting blame onto me when some of your own produced them.

See, the difference is you're defending your bruised and battered, over-inflated ego. I'm trying to find out facts for potential buyers, of which, I am one.

If you were to go back (as you suggested I do) and read my post, I said that a Mac Pro (which is a quad Xenon) was about $1000 less than a similarily configured Dell quad Xenon. That isn't personal bias, it's what the Dell site tells me.

Prove it then. Show us the money.

Show us the specs just like I did for laptops, so when someone actually buys a machine, they don't make the wrong choice due to misleading conjecture spewed forth from the likes of fanatical blowhard evangelists such as yourself.

I'll overlook your extremely poor taste...

Your judgement of taste is about as sterile as your own tendentious judgement of all things outside "the mighty blue Apple".

[Billy]

Hey, here's a forum talking about SpeedEdit (http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13041&page=1&pp=15) with some Q's and A's. There's nothing there about Quad Xenons or Mac Pros at all, so it may be boring. :eek:

[Daniel Runyon]

and as she put it "has no ongoing cost for anti-virus software."

Just to make sure she doesn't make the move over such a small reason as that, be sure to let her know about AVG Free Anti Virus... it's awesome. There are others too, AntiVir is one, I just didn't dig it all that much. And tell here she'll also have a tougher time finding Mac warez and will have to actually buy a lot of her software, driving the costs up significantly...:devil-smiley-076:

[Jenny]

Just to make sure she doesn't make the move over such a small reason as that, be sure to let her know about AVG Free Anti Virus... it's awesome. There are others too, AntiVir is one, I just didn't dig it all that much. And tell here she'll also have a tougher time finding Mac warez and will have to actually buy a lot of her software, driving the costs up significantly...:devil-smiley-076:



I already own and have used a Mac since 1995 and I buy my all my software.

BTW, still undecided and appreciate everyone's help.

[Bonsai]

Rude? You were the one that made it personal. Read your last post, genius.

Those clips were made by disenchanted Mac users, period. They were not made by PC lovers. It's pretty funny how you're projecting blame onto me when some of your own produced them.

See, the difference is you're defending your bruised and battered, over-inflated ego. I'm trying to find out facts for potential buyers, of which, I am one.



Prove it then. Show us the money.

Show us the specs just like I did for laptops, so when someone actually buys a machine, they don't make the wrong choice due to misleading conjecture spewed forth from the likes of fanatical blowhard evangelists such as yourself.



Your judgement of taste is about as sterile as your own tendentious judgement of all things outside "the mighty blue Apple".


Isn't it funny? We had the religion thread with no problems, and the political threads might have gotten a little out of hand, but I think in the end, everyone just sgreed to disagree. So what topic really leads people astray? PC vs Mac. Oy vey!!!

[RatVega]

Rude? You were the one that made it personal. Read your last post, genius.

Yes, rude. Odd how when you make misguided, disparaging, and offensive remarks you see them as objective, while inferring that all who disagree with your slanted views are somehow attacking you. Maybe it is you who should be reading the posts before lashing out. You opened by completely missing the point of my post on the comparative cost of two quads, ranting about laptops to drive your point. Since then you've been backpedaling and becoming ruder with each post.

Those clips were made by disenchanted Mac users, period. They were not made by PC lovers.

And you managed to find both of them... I assume that you don't find all those "ARRRGGG... Blue Screen of Death" (especially the live Gates demos) entertaining enough to maintain for the sake of balance. Actually, the second clip was a parody done as a counter to all the "converted" clips Apple has made available. It pointed out that there are a lot more games available for the PC platform in a "mockumentary" format. Are you sure that wasn't a PC lover?

It's pretty funny how you're projecting blame onto me when some of your own produced them.

I'm wasn't "projecting" anything, just noting that if the guy in the three-year-old clip found depressing two adjacent keys difficult when millions do this with ease, there may have been another agenda... I mean, the guy is supposedly an editor but doesn't even know how to operate his platform of choice?

See, the difference is you're defending your bruised and battered, over-inflated ego.

No, I don't see. The "bruised and battered, over-inflated ego" is apparently yours, perhaps caused by the current lack of differences (in hardware at least) with which to belittle Macs and their users in order to maintain your air of superior judgement.

I'm trying to find out facts for potential buyers, of which, I am one.

Really? When I was "looking for facts" on the quad pricing, I went to the Dell site and got the facts you accuse me of misrepresenting. You apparently did the same thing when you thought it would support your agenda (on the laptops) and are now back to "trying to find facts"? No, you're looking for dirt to support a "Macs suck, PC rules" agenda that was never true and is getting harder to sell, even to the uninformed.

Prove it then. Show us the money.

In a paraphrase of your own tactful suggestion, "Read the Dell site, Genius."

Show us the specs just like I did for laptops, so when someone actually buys a machine, they don't make the wrong choice due to misleading conjecture...

In a paraphrase of your own tactful suggestion, "Read the Dell site, Genius."

...spewed forth from the likes of fanatical blowhard evangelists such as yourself.

Hmmm... no way this could be considered rude...
Am I a Mac evangelist? Absolutely. As an ex-Intel staffer who worked to create the market for your beloved PC, I think I have the background to objectively evangelize. I leave it to others to decide which of us is the fanatic...

Your judgement of taste is about as sterile as your own tendentious judgement of all things outside "the mighty blue Apple".

Your tasteless judgements of others is far from "sterile" but speaks volumes... as does your tendentious judgement of all things from "the mighty blue Apple"

I'm done here. :grinning-smiley-021

[Bonsai]

I'm done here. :grinning-smiley-021


Bravo. No need to guess who I think the fanatic is...

[dpx]

I guess when backed into a corner, rats tend to lash out.

You can't stand the notion that this isn't a PC vs. Mac debate so your ego keeps trying to make it one when in fact, this is a "you're full of it" debate.

I've been to the Dell site and it tells me you're a liar. Nowhere do I see anywhere near a $1000 price difference between comparable machines. Since, you can't and won't substantiate your claim with any hard evidence, it proves beyond a reasonable doubt, that you're full of hot air.

Question:
Who would win between yourself and Ben Balser in an arm wrestling match?

My guess would be that you would easily win because of your vast experience in the art of jerking everyone off.
http://store.boymoment.com/albums/userpics/10002/thumb_jerkit.gif

[AndrewMSV]

Alright, kids. Back to work.

[RatVega]

I guess when backed into a corner, rats tend to lash out.

You can't stand the notion that this isn't a PC vs. Mac debate so your ego keeps trying to make it one when in fact, this is a "you're full of it" debate.

Even an idiot is entitled to an opinion...

I've been to the Dell site and it tells me you're a liar. Nowhere do I see anywhere near a $1000 price difference between comparable machines. Since, you can't and won't substantiate your claim with any hard evidence, it proves beyond a reasonable doubt, that you're full of hot air.

See below...

Question:
Who would win between yourself and Ben Balser in an arm wrestling match?

My guess would be that you would easily win because of your vast experience in the art of jerking everyone off.

Clearly you're the big winner...
http://img.dell.com/images/global/configurator/general/linebr.gif

Dell Precision 690
Unit Price: $3,877 - $50http://img.dell.com/images/global/configurator/general/spacer.gif

BUILD MY DELLhttp://img.dell.com/images/global/configurator/general/linebr.gifhttp://img.dell.com/images/global/configurator/general/spacer.gif
Dell Precision Workstation 690 (750W - 32bit)
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5150 2.66GHz, 4MB L2,13332nd Processor:
Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5150 2.66GHz, 4MB L2,1333
Operating System
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, SP2 with MediaGraphic Cards
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3450, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
Memory
1GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 533MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS)
CD-ROM, DVD, and Read-Write Devices
48XCDRW AND 16XDVD+/-RW, w/Cyberlink PowerDVD™ and Roxio Creator™
Hard Drive Configuration
C1 All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 or 2 drive total configurationBoot Hard Drive
250GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cache™Hard Drive Internal Controller Option
SATA/SAS Integrated Card - For Connecting Internal Hard Drives2nd Hard Drive None3rd Hard Drive None4th Hard Drive None
Monitors: No Monitor Option2nd Monitor: None