24p weddings.

[Lydian]

Excuse my stupidity, but I need to gather as much information from you guys as I can about the advantages, dis-advantages and general be aware of isssues regarding filming in 24p, (or in my case 25p (PAL).
I shoot with an XL2 and up until now have shot everything at 50i.
I am most definately shooting widescreen in the new year from now on and would like to take advantage of the 25p frame rate as I know it's a favourite amongst indy film makers, but would like to get a heads up on the issues involved.
Many thanks.

[AndrewMSV]

What are you editing on?

[Lydian]

Hey dude happy belated birthday!!
FCP Studio.

[MediaConcepts]

25p will give you a more "film-like" look but beware of motion - especially panning or people walking by your camera. It would be prudent to tape some test footage before you take the plunge and do a whole wedding in 25p.

Joe

[Lydian]

I have heard that motion can cause juddering etc.
So presumably if I slowed down motion footage it will look unacceptable?
This is something I am worried about in terms of it's probably fine if you are filming talking heads, but if you are filming action which let's face it there is generally always going to be plenty of motion footage in a wedding then it's not a good idea?
i.e definately a no no to film a whole wedding in 24p? And only use it on static footage?
Need to hear from some real world experience on this, but I am presuming most people on here are using z1's etc and acheiving film effect footage through their gamma settings or filters in post.

[spencercl]

I haven't shot a wedding in anything but 24p for over 3 years now, and I haven't once had a problem with it. If you use a lot of slow motion, stay away from 24p. If you shoot in a documentary style, it won't be an issue. Judder comes up primarily when you're doing pans and other similar steady motion shots, so more "cinematic" styles are more difficult to achieve (ironic given that 24 fps is more cinematic in nature), but I think a lot of people use higher framerates as a crutch. Since you can slow it down so much, it gives you latitude to even make mediocre shooting look nice. If you camera work is solid, though, you really shouldn't have any problems. It's more an issue of how important slow-mo is, in my mind.

[Lydian]

Thanks for the response.
I am actually steering away from alot of slow mo and shooting more in a docu style rather than anything else so 25p is sounding preety good to me.
I checked out your clips if you don't mind and really like your style.
I noticed you did have the odd slowed down clip, and it looked fine.
I guess it's making the right moves during the edit.
However I do like the idea of the odd cinematic shot mixed with docu style editing and was wondering can you mix frame rates on the timeline?
Not sure what you edit with i'm on FCP. You are right it is kind of ironic.
I do pride myself on steady camera work mainly as a result of using the XL2 as opposed to a lighter/smaller cam, however it is nice to have that small sense of security of a higher frame rate to have control over a short iffy shot.
Encouraging that you and someone else who emailed me shoot constantly in 24p as it was you guys that I was looking to pick your brains for advice on this. I am doing a wedding for an editor who works for sky, and he is quite keen on me pulling down to 25p (PAL).

[spencercl]

Yes, you can mix it up in FCP. You'll want to use a regular 60i timeline, and shoot in 2:3 mode if you'll be mixing both, but it works fine. The Victoria's Secret show was shot with 60i in the "behind the scenes" portion and 24P in the fashion show section, and it worked quite well, so it can work nicely.

[RatVega]

Spencer is giving good advice...

True "film look" has a lot more to do with the frame rate and how you shoot than color, which is what most "film look" filters work on. The best advice I've heard on how to get film look came from a discussion at LAFCPUG:
Shoot it like you would film (this assumes you know how to shoot film or are willing to learn)
Light it like film
Shoot 24p
Color to taste

Most of the above flies in the face of the photojournalistic style of a lot of wedding/event video; therein lies the challange.

Higher frame rates are a crutch, so much so that film guys usually overcrank anything that calls for slo-mo in the script. In fairness, 50/60i is everyone's crutch (that's why it's a standard) to achieve the spatial resolution needed. With 2-2.5 times the frames to work with, getting smooth slow motion on a moving scene is easier but one still needs to be aware of interlace artifacts.

None of this is to discourage shooting for a film look, it's just to help clarify what's in play. Doing it well is something to be admired.

[Psynema]

It's no problem - many studios do it and I find the low light / stuttering stereotype to be overstated. A small percentage of people don't like it, but most really do and I've had a client recently state outright "Hey this doesn't look like home video, it looks like a movie" - and eventually booked. It sets you apart from others.

It's really not a setback - it's just different and you'll have to change the way you shoot and color correct, that's just it.

For the most part

1. Keep the camera steady, like you would a film camera.
2. Learn manual focus if you haven't already - the DVX pretty much requires it in 24p mode and while that may turn off some, it's really a HUGE help and the footage turns out a lot better in the end - frankly I find it keeps me more alert and attentive while shooting rather than being a drawback - plus the progressive scan just make the images really sharp - you won't believe your footage is from a miniDV cam.
3. Low light - not a big issue to me really - it just looks different - you'll have strong blacks, but if you have a light, like you would any other camera, it will look good. It's DIFFERENT, not a drawback - you're trading a brighter, but muddy image with no color (60i) for a 24p image that has stronger patches of black BUT RETAINS SHARPNESS AND HAS GREAT COLOR even in low light situations - I'll have to post jpegs when I get around to it - once you color correct the footage (the DVX/24p in general has THE BEST LATITUDE of any miniDV camera) you'll see just how much color and sharpness remains while grain remains at a minimum and in some cases barely noticeable.
4. Stay a bit wider than usual for light - this means you'll have to move around more - but you really should be doing this with any camera LOL.
5. Color Correction - for the DVX, unlike other miniDV camera footage in 60i, the color correction is a bit different. Your footage in dark rooms will initially look a bit flat and a bit dark, but

1. You can raise the blacks a bit in DVX footage, unlike 60i - there's a little bit more latitude there
2. Raise the mids slightly but don't go as crazy.
3. The kicker - what makes CC really stand out - the curves are different and contrast is lower,so what I like to do is RAISE THE WHITES, remaining fairly conservative on raising the mids, WHICH ALLOWS you to boost the saturuation to like 66-75 percent (since you're not raising the mids that much, the image doesn't pixelate and get out of hand) and make the image truly pop and be much brighter and have a really strong vivid color scheme in low light compared to 60 i footage.

Not a great example, but here's a recent shoot - I had to shoot in a movie theater, which of course, has little light - here are before and after shots - I had a 20 watt light on, but had to be about 30 feet away, so it's pretty much no light on the subject - there's still color, my DOF wasn't great of course, but the image still retains good color given the fact it's really dark and I'm zoomed in all the way.

http://www.wedvidpro.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44&stc=1&d=1166550639http://www.wedvidpro.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45&stc=1&d=1166550639

[AndrewMSV]

all the comments so far are outstanding.
I just wanted to add that 24p works great for documentary style edits.
It even makes talking-head interviews visually intriguing.
Case in point: Watch ABC's Extreme Makeover Home Edition if you can. (but keep a steady supply of tissue paper - not because you will cry, but because you might vomit at the absurdity.) They always have a segment where they show the family members in-studio describing how they felt or what they thought (it's not scripted, but it's clearly prompted by the producers/directors). These segments are shot in 24p, I believe. The filmick motion blur and frame rate makes it look more appealing than the video that the rest of the show is shot with.

If you're going to do any talking-head interview segments, shoot them in 24p.

[Lydian]

Spencer is giving good advice...

True "film look" has a lot more to do with the frame rate and how you shoot than color, which is what most "film look" filters work on. The best advice I've heard on how to get film look came from a discussion at LAFCPUG:
Shoot it like you would film (this assumes you know how to shoot film or are willing to learn)
Light it like film
Shoot 24p
Color to taste

Most of the above flies in the face of the photojournalistic style of a lot of wedding/event video; therein lies the challange.

Higher frame rates are a crutch, so much so that film guys usually overcrank anything that calls for slo-mo in the script. In fairness, 50/60i is everyone's crutch (that's why it's a standard) to achieve the spatial resolution needed. With 2-2.5 times the frames to work with, getting smooth slow motion on a moving scene is easier but one still needs to be aware of interlace artifacts.

None of this is to discourage shooting for a film look, it's just to help clarify what's in play. Doing it well is something to be admired.


Dude,
When you are finished kipping at Glen's whilst he extracts every ounce of knowledge he possibly can from your brain, (I know he offered you the spare room!:grinning-smiley-021 )
Can you come stay at my place? We have a spare room!:innocent0007:
:notworthy:

[Lydian]

It's no problem - many studios do it and I find the low light / stuttering stereotype to be overstated. A small percentage of people don't like it, but most really do and I've had a client recently state outright "Hey this doesn't look like home video, it looks like a movie" - and eventually booked. It sets you apart from others.

It's really not a setback - it's just different and you'll have to change the way you shoot and color correct, that's just it.

For the most part

1. Keep the camera steady, like you would a film camera.
2. Learn manual focus if you haven't already - the DVX pretty much requires it in 24p mode and while that may turn off some, it's really a HUGE help and the footage turns out a lot better in the end - frankly I find it keeps me more alert and attentive while shooting rather than being a drawback - plus the progressive scan just make the images really sharp - you won't believe your footage is from a miniDV cam.
3. Low light - not a big issue to me really - it just looks different - you'll have strong blacks, but if you have a light, like you would any other camera, it will look good. It's DIFFERENT, not a drawback - you're trading a brighter, but muddy image with no color (60i) for a 24p image that has stronger patches of black BUT RETAINS SHARPNESS AND HAS GREAT COLOR even in low light situations - I'll have to post jpegs when I get around to it - once you color correct the footage (the DVX/24p in general has THE BEST LATITUDE of any miniDV camera) you'll see just how much color and sharpness remains while grain remains at a minimum and in some cases barely noticeable.
4. Stay a bit wider than usual for light - this means you'll have to move around more - but you really should be doing this with any camera LOL.
5. Color Correction - for the DVX, unlike other miniDV camera footage in 60i, the color correction is a bit different. Your footage in dark rooms will initially look a bit flat and a bit dark, but

1. You can raise the blacks a bit in DVX footage, unlike 60i - there's a little bit more latitude there
2. Raise the mids slightly but don't go as crazy.
3. The kicker - what makes CC really stand out - the curves are different and contrast is lower,so what I like to do is RAISE THE WHITES, remaining fairly conservative on raising the mids, WHICH ALLOWS you to boost the saturuation to like 66-75 percent (since you're not raising the mids that much, the image doesn't pixelate and get out of hand) and make the image truly pop and be much brighter and have a really strong vivid color scheme in low light compared to 60 i footage.

Not a great example, but here's a recent shoot - I had to shoot in a movie theater, which of course, has little light - here are before and after shots - I had a 20 watt light on, but had to be about 30 feet away, so it's pretty much no light on the subject - there's still color, my DOF wasn't great of course, but the image still retains good color given the fact it's really dark and I'm zoomed in all the way.

http://www.wedvidpro.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44&stc=1&d=1166550639http://www.wedvidpro.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45&stc=1&d=1166550639

Now you know your stuff regarding 24p!!!
Wow thank you for that, amazingly thorough and informative.
I am going to be PM ing you BIG TIME over the next twelve months, if you don't mind.
Post some clips!!!
:dance1:

[Lydian]

all the comments so far are outstanding.
I just wanted to add that 24p works great for documentary style edits.
It even makes talking-head interviews visually intriguing.
Case in point: Watch ABC's Extreme Makeover Home Edition if you can. (but keep a steady supply of tissue paper - not because you will cry, but because you might vomit at the absurdity.) They always have a segment where they show the family members in-studio describing how they felt or what they thought (it's not scripted, but it's clearly prompted by the producers/directors). These segments are shot in 24p, I believe. The filmick motion blur and frame rate makes it look more appealing than the video that the rest of the show is shot with.

If you're going to do any talking-head interview segments, shoot them in 24p.


More than I expected.
Very chuffed!!!

[Psynema]

Now you know your stuff regarding 24p!!!
Wow thank you for that, amazingly thorough and informative.
I am going to be PM ing you BIG TIME over the next twelve months, if you don't mind.
Post some clips!!!
:dance1:

I have some on the screening room board - just do a search it's all dvx