HDV a temporary format?

[Billy]

So is HDV just a transitional format until the real formats come along? (http://broadcastengineering.com/eng/hdtv-format-decline-1213/)

To be honest, I've never really thought that HDV is gonna be the format for me. I haven't invested in it and at this point in time don't think that I will. Maybe my mind will change, but this article just reinforces what I've been thinking.

Will HDV eventually be relegated to a consumer format?

[bruceo]

Transitional or not. IMO the transition time will exceed a normal camera's tape head anyway... In Nov 04 when we started the decision to transition to the FX1 and a few months later to the Z1 cameras as they were released and I remember the majority saying that I was stupid and they were going to wait until the new crop of cameras were released because they would be so much better. Now 2 years later there is still is no camera that is significantly better and a large majority are still saying the same thing. While the first 3 cameras bought by March 05 were paid for in full by April 05 and now I have 7 of them paid for and around 400+ hours and 60+ productions shot in HD.

Native HDV editing through software only is now very close to editing regular DV, so IMO AVCHD and jpg2000 wont bring much to the prof table. XDcamHD mpg2 short GOP and P2 DVCproHD will be prosumer/ENG/pro formats. With HDCam in the high end space.

[AndrewMSV]

Well said, Bruce.
I think, as a business owner, it comes down to a fiscal decision. There is no reason to consider future trends and prognostication if there is a viable market RIGHT NOW.
The main question is whether or not a specific studio can relay the additional, initial cost of going HD (capital cost of the camera, new editing hardware, cost of time in learning curves for software and hardware issues as well as techniques, marketing costs of revamping your sales pitch, etc etc) into profits.
If you are already a break-even venture, HD won't be good for you - not now, not ever. You will likely just fizzle out when technology passes you by (case in point: Uncle Charlie and his shoulder mount VHS camcorders.)
Will HDV be relegated to an obsolete or dated consumer technology like the stupid Sony DVD camcorders? Maybe. Maybe not. But if you can capitalize on the current technologies and be a nimble enough company to recover when the trend switches, then what's the loss?

[Mathew]

I think Bruce is a rare exception of a business owner who was able to capitalize on the format and pay off his equipment so quickly. His approach isn't wrong and for him it was very prudent. However for 90% of other wedding videographers out there I think it's much more prudent to be conservative with equipment investments (especially cameras) and see where consumer trends go. Guys like Joel, Glen, John K. (of VU) and many others (myself) have made good use of current camera technology and have grown our business by doing so.

As I always say with this business, you need two of everything in case of emergency. If you're doing multi-cam shoots then you really need 3+ cameras. Switching to HD also requires faster hardware for editing and more storage. All that and you still cannot deliver an HD video except using some arcane method of buying the customer a special DVD player to watch their video. Unless you need new cameras right now or have an extra $10K just burning a hole in your pocket then it's best to wait out and let the early adoptors figure out which format is the best.

Regarding HDV, those 2-3 second drop-outs that I've seen still scare the crap out of me. I know Bruce will say he's only had 2.535 of them but along with Ivey's recent issue I think there are a few kinks to be ironed out of the format.

[Billy]

I'm not necessarily advocating not investing in HDV, since surely there are people who are making this investment pay off for them. I'm just throwing this out there as to whether HDV will make it as a long-term format or whether it's just a stop-gap format until better things come along.

Personally I have waited and can afford to wait a little while longer. If another more viable format comes along that I believe is superior I'll probably jump on that when the time comes for me to go HD. The Panasonic stuff looks good as does the JPEG2000 format. I just don't think Sony got it right this time around.

[Mathew]

If you are already a break-even venture, HD won't be good for you - not now, not ever. You will likely just fizzle out when technology passes you by (case in point: Uncle Charlie and his shoulder mount VHS camcorders.)


Actually the guys who are just breaking even are the ones who are constantly re-investing in their gear. This business can be a total money-pit if you wish it. The successful are the ones who make prudent business decisions and strive to put out an excellent product with good customer relations, technically sound videos and are modestly creative enough to enhance their productions above their competition.

[AndrewMSV]

Actually the guys who are just breaking even are the ones who are constantly re-investing in their gear. This business can be a total money-pit if you wish it. The successful are the ones who make prudent business decisions and strive to put out an excellent product with good customer relations, technically sound videos and are modestly creative enough to enhance their productions above their competition.
I guess this is neither here nor there considering the innumerable variations of business models and degrees of success.

My point is that if you aren't profitable and business minded (I'm terrible at the business side of what I do, I just manage to get by with one singular marketing strategy: Make cool videos, keep raising prices until the leads dry up) you probably shouldn't be jumping on board with every new technology that comes your way.

But if you ARE able to relay every new gimmick into sales, then more power to you.

[bruceo]

I think Bruce is a rare exception of a business owner who was able to capitalize on the format and pay off his equipment so quickly. His approach isn't wrong and for him it was very prudent. However for 90% of other wedding videographers out there I think it's much more prudent to be conservative with equipment investments (especially cameras) and see where consumer trends go. Guys like Joel, Glen, John K. (of VU) and many others (myself) have made good use of current camera technology and have grown our business by doing so.

As I always say with this business, you need two of everything in case of emergency. If you're doing multi-cam shoots then you really need 3+ cameras. Switching to HD also requires faster hardware for editing and more storage. All that and you still cannot deliver an HD video except using some arcane method of buying the customer a special DVD player to watch their video. Unless you need new cameras right now or have an extra $10K just burning a hole in your pocket then it's best to wait out and let the early adoptors figure out which format is the best.

Regarding HDV, those 2-3 second drop-outs that I've seen still scare the crap out of me. I know Bruce will say he's only had 2.535 of them but along with Ivey's recent issue I think there are a few kinks to be ironed out of the format.

It must be said that I had Xl1s and GL1 at the time so it was easy to unload at a good price, so I wan't too heavily invested in SD.

Right now one of my rough cut editors is now editing native HDV multicam in Vegas on a P4 2.8 512MB ram on an external hdd. You can find systems people want to give away to make room in their closet to edit 2K compressed HD.

From what i have seen Ivey's issues are related to multiple format settings of the Z1 not HDV issues.

[bruceo]

I just don't think Sony got it right this time around.

I don't know about that, they sold more FX1/Z1s than all other HD format cams combined. As long as your chosen NLE can ingest your chosen cam's footage it will be useful.

[WindyHillsVideo]

I'm seeing some interesting perspectives in this thread. Not a lot of argument with most of them either. For me, I may be coming around to a newer way of looking at HD and newer technologies in general.

I'm not a big fan of Sony, as a company I see a lot of similarity in the way they operate and the way Microsoft operates. As a technology giant, Sony likes to dominate whatever market they're in. [not a BAD thing] They seem to have no problem with creating propretary formats, creating a buzz about them and then completely abandoning them, making them obsolete with another one, in a very short time. HDV feels like one of these cases.

In my mind HD isn't going to be a fad, HDV and the current crop of cameras that shoot the assorted flavors of HD look promising at first glance. But as others have pointed out already on this thread; Do you think it's wise to build your workflow or your business around this year's model? I Don't. But everyone has to make this decision and go with their gut don't they?

For some, it's a logical step-up in a path to what will or should become the next defacto standard in preferred video delivery. The whole standards war of formats is likely to go on for another year or two, maybe longer. As more folks plunk down their big bucks for big flat panels, and upgrade their entertainment systems the real demand for content is going to heat up and in a big way. For those folks who can sell the idea that this is the wave of the future, there's a potential profit to be made, and some advantages to being the leaders in being able to deliver content that fills this need.

HDV is a either a blessing or a curse, depending on how you look at it. If you can make it work for you, and deliver content people want now, it could make sense. But I think it's a case of getting in FAST, with a plan and making your money and being ready to get out, and onto the next wave that we all can see is coming.

I'm happy to sit on the sidelides and not be on the bleeding edge for this one. I've got plenty of other aspects to my business in need of work.:uhoh:


Michael

[dMb]

Make cool videos, keep raising prices until the leads dry up) you probably shouldn't be jumping on board with every new technology that comes your way.
.


works for me,
I am moving into HD in another month. My last purchase was the VX2000 - Its the only camera I've used for the last 6 years. Its still going strong too.

[Mathew]

My point is that if you aren't profitable and business minded (I'm terrible at the business side of what I do, I just manage to get by with one singular marketing strategy: Make cool videos, keep raising prices until the leads dry up) you probably shouldn't be jumping on board with every new technology that comes your way.


That's the thing; most creative people are terrible at business. There are rare exceptions but as a rule they're better off letting someone else take care of the money. That's what makes our business so dangerous is that most of us get weak in the knees for any new tool that comes down the Sony or Panasonic pipe-line. It makes it even worse when a pied piper like Douglas Little Feather over on VU for example touts that HDV is the only answer to staying in business.

[dMb]

It makes it even worse when a pied piper like Douglas Little Feather over on VU for example touts that HDV is the only answer to staying in business.

Why the attack on Douglas?
That is rude and uncalled for. His Name is Douglas Spotted Eagle and he has received a Grammy, an Emmy, a DuPont, a Peabody, and many other awards. His music is heard in a wide range of films from "Last Samurai" to "Star Wars-Ewok" cartoons.

and you?
What have you done?

[bruceo]

works for me,
I am moving into HD in another month. My last purchase was the VX2000 - Its the only camera I've used for the last 6 years. Its still going strong too.

4 weeks of shooting widescreen and you will wonder why you waited so long. You'll never want to touch a 4x3 again.

[Billy]

The manufacturers are getting very adept with their hype about how everyone should buy the latest and greatest or else they're toast. The videographers' advocacy groups are little more than the mouthpiece of the manufacturers because about the only thing they advocate is how to buy and use the new tools.

Over the years I've become highly cynical of the whole equipment production/marketing mill. There's a lot of great things out there that've made videographers' lives much easier, better, and cheaper, but there's so much more that's just fluff.

[Mathew]

"Star Wars-Ewok" cartoons.

Noteworthy indeed.


and you?
What have you done?

I've given 100's of brides a video memory of their wedding day. You can try to slight that but it would be pretty weak on your part considering that is how you made a living as well.

Doug, "Spotted Eagle" (which I'm sure is a stage name) often dissed the craft of wedding videography. If you remember he called us criminals on more than one occasion for using copywrited music. He also falsely used examples to make his case for HDV (the infamous DVX vs. FX1 example). I'm not slighting the guy in the least for his talent in the sound department and if he would of stuck to that topic I would of never had an issue with him.

[dMb]

You'll never want to touch a 4x3 again.

Yeap, it will just be one more thing to add a growing list.

Truth is, I am excited about it. The new style I will be doing, the new look. HD. A full dmb make over.

[Mathew]

4 weeks of shooting widescreen and you will wonder why you waited so long. You'll never want to touch a 4x3 again.

Nothing wrong with 4x3 except that it looks like ass stretched on a widescreen tv. Is the Mona Lisa any less relevant because Da Vinci chose a rectangular canvas instead of a wide one? It's all in how you utilize the frame.

[Mathew]

The videographers' advocacy groups are little more than the mouthpiece of the manufacturers because about the only thing they advocate is how to buy and use the new tools.


Yep. The latest WEVA mag looks basically like a J&R catalog.

[Billy]

Most TV is still 4:3. Some things benefit from 16:9, some don't.

[dMb]

Doug, "Spotted Eagle" (which I'm sure is a stage name) often dissed the craft of wedding videography. If you remember he called us criminals on more than one occasion for using copywrited music. He also falsely used examples to make his case for HDV (the infamous DVX vs. FX1 example). .

Rise above it, he isn't posting on this thread that I noticed. To take stabs at someone who may or may not see, what good does it do. You don't have to take that road Mat. Are you unhappy with life?
I know, when I am, I act out more on people. I have a tendency to focus on the flaws of others. Same thing, it I am tired or hungry. I don't mean too. I really don't. I can forgive and kind of forget. Forget enough not to let old news bug me but remember enough not to create new news with goofs.

What Douglas has done or said in the past and will say in the future has no real impact on me. I am buying HD as well. Its time and I like the look.

[Mathew]

What Douglas has done or said in the past and will say in the future has no real impact on me. I am buying HD as well. Its time and I like the look.

Well said, living in the past sucks. Maybe Doug will stray upon this thread and chime in. I haven't seen or heard from him in ages...

[Chuck_e7]

"Regarding HDV, those 2-3 second drop-outs that I've seen still scare the crap out of me. I know Bruce will say he's only had 2.535 of them but along with Ivey's recent issue I think there are a few kinks to be ironed out of the format"

I have two FX-1's, and the only time I've seen dropouts is when I forget and use the 83minute DV tapes. As long as I use 63 min tapes, no problems, even with a continuous three hour shoot...