High end graphics cards for mac.

[Lydian]

Hi everyone been a while since I posted but wondered if i could get advice from all you high def gurus on a mac.
If i wanted to do real time editing in Final cut pro compositing 3 layers in high definition with basic keyframing is this possible?
If it must render, roughly how long would a three minute movie take?
This is based on a dual 2.5 gig power mac with two gig of ram.
However I am possibly thinking of upgrading my mac to a new intel tower at the end of the year. I need to acheive real time (no rendering) if possible and so could I just simply upgrade my graphics card for my dualie to a Kona card or something? And if so which?
Are there graphics cards that can handle this for my machine i.e several layers (probably no more than 3) of high definition.
With regards to the keyframing I need a subject to follow the movement of something else, I know this can be done in final cut but if i invested in shake would my workload be far quicker.
I don't mind investing but didn't really want to have to go into other applications per film as this will obviously slow the process down.
Many thanks in advance for advice.

[RatVega]

Hi everyone been a while since I posted but wondered if i could get advice from all you high def gurus on a mac.
If i wanted to do real time editing in Final cut pro compositing 3 layers in high definition with basic keyframing is this possible?

I've been playing with a couple of kinds of HD and it's not too bad. It is my belief that if you want to do this with multiple monitors, a fast graphics board should be an asset. I also think that increasing the RAM to 4-6GB would be helpful.

What type of HD you're cutting will have an impact on what you can do easily. The codec you use will also make a difference. If you just need to cut together three cameras, Multicam can handle this in HDV pretty easily. If you're planning on truly compositing the footage, I don't think you'll be enchanted with the HDV option. In general, HDV is fine fro basic cutting and a few transitions, but since it requires that the processors decompress/recompress the footage on-the-fly for frame accurate work, three layers of keyframing may be excessive. I'd be tempted to try converting the HDV to Apple Intermediate Codec (or if you're feeling a little crazy, uncompressed...) which will reduce the overhead. The same comments apply if you plan to do extensive color correction or filtering.

Understand that there are datastream requirements with the AIC and uncompressed formats, but an internal SATA drive should be able to handle the 3-minute timeline you asked about.

If it must render, roughly how long would a three minute movie take?
This is based on a dual 2.5 gig power mac with two gig of ram.

The rendering issue is hard to estimate because it's contingent on how extensively you've modified the timeline. But plan on rendering, if only at the finalizing stage. The workflow I'm using with some (very) non-standard HD I have been cutting is to make one trip down the timeline to simply cut for content, making composites as I go where needed. On a second pass, I set screen zooms and effects, then render and review. My renders tend to be 2-4 minutes per minute of timeline unless the keyframing or effects get extreme.

However I am possibly thinking of upgrading my mac to a new intel tower at the end of the year. I need to acheive real time (no rendering) if possible and so could I just simply upgrade my graphics card for my dualie to a Kona card or something? And if so which?

Upgrading your system is always a good idea :) but let's talk about what will make a difference:

Processors - always... enough said.

Graphics board - since Tiger is "GPU-aware" a fast video board is going to help most everything.

Fast disk - this is a big player in HD if you leave the HDV format. I posted on it a while ago, but a SATA RAID is about the most practical disk system for this kind od thing.

If, when you say "I need to achieve real-time" what you mean is you need to be able to preview your work quickly and easily while tweaking in your effects, then maybe you should be looking at Shake. Shake is resolution independent, has great compositing tools, and makes relatively moderate demands on the processors prior to your output rendering. And output can be network rendered if needed.

If, on the other hand, what you mean is nothing ever has to render, you can always sell your house and buy one of those "real-time workstations" that the networks are so fond of...

Are there graphics cards that can handle this for my machine i.e several layers (probably no more than 3) of high definition.

The problems with real-time have more to do with the processors and codecs than they do the graphics board. As far as boards for your machine go, the ATI X800 XT works well. Others may work but would require some research as to OS support. Most of the latest and greatest boards are PCI-E based, not PCI-X.

With regards to the keyframing I need a subject to follow the movement of something else, I know this can be done in final cut but if i invested in shake would my workload be far quicker.
I don't mind investing but didn't really want to have to go into other applications per film as this will obviously slow the process down.

If what you're trying to do is "tracking", where you analyze the motion of a point on a layer and generate a spline path of the motion, then pin other layers to the path, this can be done on a Mac using either Shake, Boris Continuum Complete in FCP, or Boris RED as an FCP filter or free-standing. There are probably other apps as well.

Dealing with a second application optimized for the kind of work you need to do may actually speed your workflow once you get used to it.

Many thanks in advance for advice.

PM me with specifics if there's anything here that sounds interesting...

[Lydian]

Ratvega :notworthy:

I re-read my post and I am surprised You were able to make sense of it, I'd had a few beers that night. :beers:
Anyway from what you said does give me some hope if the render times are down to that much.
The thing that I need this for requires that I don't spend ages rendering per project otherwise it is pointless, It needs to be a bit of a production line kind of thing.
I may need to PM you a bit more if that's okay about some of it, as i don't really want to go into it too much on public boards, but you will probably gather from the history of your advice for me that this is still the ongoing project :icon_confused: from probably the first time that i asked for your advice.
I am not sure if what i am trying to acheive is slightly ahead of the technology in terms of real time rendering etc.
And I am not going to sell my house for one of those TV workstations.
:)
Again thanks for taking the time to advise, if I call Apple or other so called specialists I just get blank expressions for my questions.
I am grateful that someone with your knowledge can be bothered to take time out of your busy schedule to help a brother out.
It's getting sound experienced advice that saves alot of headbanging.
When I went to the Apple store in London to get advice about this I asked one of the staff if they could tell me about Shake.
He said "What's Shake?". :violent1:

[RatVega]

Feel free to PM me with specifics. I respect that not everything we do needs to be publicly posted, we all have work-in-process that requires discretion.

I think I'll be moving a lot of my compositing and effects to Shake as I get a firm grip on it; I think it will be faster and easier in the "tweaking stage" because of its design and preview features.

As for Apple or other "generic gurus", they're going to know the most about things they are required to deal with most frequently... I'll bet if you go to an Apple store in the US, most would respond that you can get a Shake in vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry. :grinning-smiley-021

[Lydian]

As for Apple or other "generic gurus", they're going to know the most about things they are required to deal with most frequently... I'll bet if you go to an Apple store in the US, most would respond that you can get a Shake in vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry. :grinning-smiley-021[/QUOTE]


LMAO!!:laughing-smiley-011